Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 65/40 Hour: 1/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 173 of 1198 (634591)
09-22-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ICANT
09-22-2011 10:30 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
All the man had to know was that he was told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
How does man know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil if man has no knowledge of good and evil?
Without the foreknowledge of evil, man has no warning that evil exists.
God says, "Don't eat from this tree".
The snake says, "Hey, God came by earlier and said it he changed his mind and it's okay to eat."
Since Adam and Eve have NO knowledge that evil exists, they have no reason not to believe the snake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 10:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Chuck77, posted 09-23-2011 3:02 AM Nuggin has replied
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 9:46 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 176 of 1198 (634603)
09-23-2011 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Chuck77
09-23-2011 3:02 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Nope, Adam didn't know what evil was, but God did. That's why he(God) told him not eat of the tree. It was a simple command.
Yes, however since Adam has had the concept of evil kept from him he has no reason to suspect that anyone, especially an agent from God, would lie to him.
So, here's the scenario:
God says: "Don't eat from this tree".
Adam and Eve say: "Okay."
A couple of days go by.
They are visited by a talking snake.
Snake: "God sent me and said it's okay to eat from the tree now."
Adam and Eve: "Really?"
Snake: "Yes."
Adam and Eve: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "I'm a talking snake. Obviously I've been created by God to give you this message."
Adam and Eve: "Well, since we only know about truth and have no knowledge of anything being different than truth, this is clearly a message from God to eat from the tree."
It's like when a mother says to a 4 yr old, don't touch the stove or you will get burned. The kid touches it, why? Because the kid doesn't know what burned means.
Only in this scenario the mom tells the kid not to touch it. The kid doesn't touch it. Then dad comes home and says "It's okay, you can touch it". The kid does. So mom punishes the kid for the rest of eternity.
The kid DOESN'T KNOW not to believe Dad. Mom never said "Don't listen to Dad".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Chuck77, posted 09-23-2011 3:02 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by AdminPD, posted 09-23-2011 6:56 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 186 of 1198 (634664)
09-23-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ICANT
09-23-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
My first day at Ft Stewart my first sergent informed me there was three ways anything could be done.
The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
He then said as long as you are in the army you will do things the army way.
So on day two, your sergent says "No one is allowed in this building."
And on day three some other sergent says "Forget what he said, I'm in the army and I'm telling you to go in this building".
What's the Army way?
To address the Jesus question --
Jesus allegedly died on the cross to free mankind of original sin. The problem is, there was no sin. It's not a sin to be tricked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 9:46 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:53 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 191 of 1198 (634676)
09-23-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
09-23-2011 10:53 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Where does the text say the man was tricked into disobeying God?
A _talking snake_ told Eve to eat the fruit.
Normal snakes do not talk. Therefore, a talking snake must have been created magically.
Man has no knowledge of evil, therefore the only force in the Universe capable of creating a magic talking snake is God.
If a messenger of God comes and tells you something - you believe it.
Sin is willfully breaking a rule with foreknowledge that it is wrong to do so.
It is not sinful to steal someone's food if you don't know that anyone else exists. You have no concept of "other people" and therefore no concept of "other people's property". You can not "steal" if you don't have a concept of property.
It is not sinful to eat a clam if you've never been told that clams are forbidden.
It is not sinful to obey God when he says "don't eat". It is not sinful to obey God's messenger when the messenger says "Okay, now you can eat".
So, there's no "original sin" for Jesus to restore.
Further, there has been no restoration.
If the whole claim is that Jesus died on the cross to restore man to his original state, then humanity should have no knowledge of good and evil. Yet, we do.
Alternately, the fruit causes mortality. If you eat it you will surely die.
Are people immortal? No.
You can make all sorts of claims about eternal life AFTER DEATH, however the key thing there is _AFTER_ _DEATH_.
Face it, it's all a bunch of bull. The narrative makes no sense.
That's what happens when you bring in lots of spare writers to "touch up" a plot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 1:21 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 200 of 1198 (634736)
09-23-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ICANT
09-23-2011 1:21 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
I did not ask anything about the serpent talking to the woman.
Where does the text say the man was tricked into disobeying God?
It does not nor does the man claim he was deceived or tricked by the serpent.
He blamed God for his disobedience.
Where in the text does it say that Adam slept the night before? Where in the text does it say that Adam and Eve drank water? Where in the text does it say that Adam and Eve breathe air?
Just because something is not in the text does not mean it can not be inferred from the text.
As for "blaming God", God created the talking snake and sent it to Eve to tell her it was okay to eat the fruit. Then God backs out on that and accuses them of breaking the rules.
Of course Adam is going to blame God. God deserves the blame.
Normal snakes do not talk.
Where do you find that this serpent did not have the ability to talk?
As far as that goes how do you know that all animals at that time did not talk?
So, you want to play "It's not in the text" with the snake tricking them but you are willing to assume that ALL ANIMALS COULD SPEAK at this time?
Really?
Is this your religion or a children's book? Is there a difference?
The serpent under discussion was formed from the ground in the same light period that the Heavens and the Earth was created. He had legs and could walk until God cursed him and told him he would crawl on his belly the rest of his life.
BTW Science says snakes used to have legs.
If the serpent could walk why couldn't he talk? No magic involved.
So, snakes had legs and then had them removed. And snakes could talk and then.... didn't have that removed.
So, why don't snakes still talk? Why don't all the animals still talk?
Seriously, are you just arguing for the fun of arguing or do you actually believe this nonsense?
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Did Adam have the book of John to refer to? I don't think so.
From Adam's perspective there's NO REASON to NOT BELIEVE anything any talking animal tells him. They are all messengers of God and incapable of deception because the very concept of deception does not even exist.
The man was commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He was told if he did he would die.
The man chose to eat the fruit and suffer the consequences.
The only thing involved was his disobeying a direct command.
Did man die? No.
Was man commanded to eat the fruit? Yes.
Was the fruit placed there specifically for man to eat it? Yes.
Did God therefore want man to eat the fruit? Yes.
To NOT eat the fruit would be to go against the will of God.
God created the tree, gave it fruit, put it in the garden, put Adam in the garden, created a talking snake and told it to go tell Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.
There's no sin here at all.
That broken relationship brought about the necesity of the sacrifice at Calvary to restore mankind to the same relationship the man in the garden enjoyed prior to his disobedience.
Prior to his "disobedience" man had no knowledge of evil.
Do you have knowledge of evil?
Your claim is falsified.
Everyone who has been born again has been restored to a right relationship with God.
So no one who is born again can have an intelligent opinion on good and evil.
Good to know.
I assume you are born again, since you position is clearly not intelligent.
The first man was formed from the dust of the ground.
The dust of the ground was already an eternal existing substance so from the beginning of mankind he was an eternal being.
I read somewhere you can not create or destroy energy or matter but they are interchangable. So everything has always existed in some form just not nesecerally in the form we observe it today.
Translation: God is a liar
Good to know. I'll be sure to quote you on that.
God told the man not to eat of a specific tree, and if he did he would die.
Yeah, that's what you say. But then you also say that God is a liar. So, it's sort of hard to believe you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 1:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2011 1:36 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 208 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2011 10:54 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024