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Author
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Topic: Importance of Original Sin
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 391 of 1198 (709735)
10-29-2013 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 388 by Phat
10-29-2013 12:05 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: Hardly an ignorant man. What extra knowledge about God did CS Lewis have that you or I don't have and where did it come from?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 388 by Phat, posted 10-29-2013 12:05 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 392 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 12:30 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 392 of 1198 (709825)
10-30-2013 12:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 391 by Tangle
10-29-2013 2:54 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
What extra knowledge about God did CS Lewis have that you or I don't have and where did it come from? Do we really have to know where it comes from before we can believe in it? Even if I was talking to the air, how would I really know? Faith is the initial prerequisite---not evidence. Heb 11:1-- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith itself is the substance. There wont be a confirmation of substance without faith. Critics will equate this to making God up in our own minds....well if thats true, so be it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 391 by Tangle, posted 10-29-2013 2:54 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 393 of 1198 (709832)
10-30-2013 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 392 by Phat
10-30-2013 12:30 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: Even if I was talking to the air, how would I really know?
That's what I keep asking you - and yet you continually insist that listening to the air is superior to human wisdom.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 392 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 12:30 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 394 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 12:52 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 394 of 1198 (709834)
10-30-2013 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 393 by ringo
10-30-2013 12:49 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
the reason is that human wisdom values evidence over faith. While i cannot deny that this is logical, it is not the only option. Faith comes before evidence. (not in all circumstances, mind you)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 393 by ringo, posted 10-30-2013 12:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 395 by ringo, posted 10-30-2013 12:56 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 395 of 1198 (709836)
10-30-2013 12:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 394 by Phat
10-30-2013 12:52 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: the reason is that human wisdom values evidence over faith. While i cannot deny that this is logical, it is not the only option. Faith comes before evidence. (not in all circumstances, mind you)
Even your Hebrews quote doesn't agree with that. Faith is the "evidence" of things not seen. It doesn't trump things that are seen. Faith is only a backup plan when there is no real evidence. It isn't a universal "Nuh uh."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 394 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 12:52 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 396 of 1198 (709849)
10-30-2013 1:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 392 by Phat
10-30-2013 12:30 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: Do we really have to know where it comes from before we can believe in it? Well it would be useful to know wouldn't it? But never mind, I asked what knowledge CS Lewis has about God that we don't. Would you like to answer?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 392 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 12:30 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 397 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 5:21 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 397 of 1198 (709881)
10-30-2013 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 396 by Tangle
10-30-2013 1:28 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
tangle writes: But never mind, I asked what knowledge CS Lewis has about God that we don't. Would you like to answer? I cant say that CS Lewis had any knowledge of God apart from what anyone has. The Bible says that humans by nature suppress the truth.. NIV writes: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about Godis plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. You, I, and CS Lewis all know the same basic things...but we choose how to interpret these things which we know. We are a product of our experience, but we choose our belief relative to our experience. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : added corrections
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 396 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2013 1:28 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 398 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2013 5:38 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 398 of 1198 (709882)
10-30-2013 5:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 397 by Phat
10-30-2013 5:21 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: I cant say that CS Lewis had any knowledge of God apart from what anyone has Ok, so why post this drivel?
On The Fall The doctrine of the Fall (both of man and of some gods, eldils or angels) is the only satisfactory explanation. Evil begins, in a universe where all was good, from free will, which was permitted because it makes possible the greatest good of all. The corruption of the first sinner consists not in choosing some evil thing (there are no evil things for him to choose) but in preferring a lesser good (himself) before a greater (God). The Fall is, in fact, Pride. The possibility of this wrong preference is inherent in the v. fact of having, or being, a self at all. But though freedom is real it is not infinite. Every choice reduces a little one’s freedom to choose the next time. There therefore comes a time when the creature is fully built, irrevocably attached either to God or to itself. This irrevocableness is what we call Heaven or Hell. Every conscious agent is finally committed in the long run: i.e., it rises above freedom into willed, but henceforth unalterable, union with God, or else sinks below freedom into the black fire of self-imprisonment. That is why the universe (as even the physicists now admit) has a real history, a fifth act with a finale in which the good characters live happily ever after and the bad ones are cast out. At least that is how I see it. From The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume II
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 397 by Phat, posted 10-30-2013 5:21 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 400 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 2:01 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 399 of 1198 (709923)
10-31-2013 2:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 390 by jar
10-29-2013 12:14 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
jar writes: Even wise men can be wrong. Notice he produces no support for that assertion. What type of "support" would you expect an Oxford Professor to make? And why do you seem to have this odd notion that support is required? Perhaps the support is blatantly obvious and people simply refuse to believe it. You have even hinted that if my God was real you quite likely would not worship Him. What makes you so proud and even vain enough to cherish your own free will as an eternal right to ask questions and never accept any answers?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 390 by jar, posted 10-29-2013 12:14 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 404 by jar, posted 10-31-2013 9:50 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 400 of 1198 (709924)
10-31-2013 2:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 398 by Tangle
10-30-2013 5:38 PM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Tangle writes: Ok, so why post this drivel? I dunno...perhaps to get a rise out of you. Why would you care? 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 398 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2013 5:38 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 401 by Tangle, posted 10-31-2013 3:34 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 401 of 1198 (709926)
10-31-2013 3:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 400 by Phat
10-31-2013 2:01 AM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Let me help you then. You post it because you think that if a celebrity says something it adds credibility to the argument. Well it certainly sells toothpaste, but it's a logical fallacy and when used in arguments in places like this, it makes you look silly.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 400 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 2:01 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 402 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 7:06 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 402 of 1198 (709933)
10-31-2013 7:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 401 by Tangle
10-31-2013 3:34 AM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
But I don't consider arguments valid based only on the discipline of science anyway so I do not recognize your definition of credibility. In fact, I could almost say that you do like the Bible says in that you suppress the truth...you refuse to consider it...but why quibble over things we likely will never agree on anyway? (Im sure this post will get a dislike from Theodoric)  Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 401 by Tangle, posted 10-31-2013 3:34 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 403 by Tangle, posted 10-31-2013 7:28 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 405 by Theodoric, posted 10-31-2013 10:12 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 403 of 1198 (709936)
10-31-2013 7:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 402 by Phat
10-31-2013 7:06 AM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Phat writes: But I don't consider arguments valid based only on the discipline of science anyway so I do not recognize your definition of credibility. That is not an argument based on science, it's an argument based on logic. But a more interesting point is why you consider a pile of unsupported words from a celebrity who, you admit, knows no more about it than you or I, to be worthy of posting. I think you're just saying 'Well this well known clever person believes what I believe so it must be true" Which is a logical error.
In fact, I could almost say that you do like the Bible says in that you suppress the truth...you refuse to consider it... and exactly what truth is it that I'm suppressing and not considering?
but why quibble over things we likely will never agree on anyway? I don't expect you to agree with me, I'm just insisting that you're rational in your arguments.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 402 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 7:06 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 404 of 1198 (709950)
10-31-2013 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 399 by Phat
10-31-2013 2:00 AM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
LOL God gave me a brain. Did he expect me to just sit on it?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 399 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 2:00 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 405 of 1198 (709956)
10-31-2013 10:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 402 by Phat
10-31-2013 7:06 AM
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Re: C.S.Lewis perspective
Im sure this post will get a dislike from Theodoric
It should because your arguments are just words strung together that you think sound impressive. You present Lewis and others as experts, but all they give are their beliefs and feelings without anything to back up their assertions. Lewis is a mess of logical fallacies. Try searching CS Lewis logical fallacies and read. I suggest using Duckduckgo. No ads, no tracking, anonymous You waste pixels, that I why I dislike your posts.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 402 by Phat, posted 10-31-2013 7:06 AM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 406 by jaywill, posted 11-01-2013 2:52 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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