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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
He also told Thomas to test the evidence.
How come the most powerful personality in history - Jesus of Nazareth, talked SO MUCH about faith and believing ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
He did:
If objective evidence was so important, why didn't Jesus mention it? quote:Believe the evidence first. If there is no evidence you can believe the woo-woo.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How?
By shouting "Lord, lord"?, by woo and nonsense like Original Sin or being saved or by actually doing what Jesus told us to do?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
He also told Thomas to test the evidence. That's true. And look at Thomas's reaction - calling Jesus his Lord and his God. But more importantly to me is what Jesus felt to ADD to his challenge for Thomas to perform empirical test. Read it CAREFULLY -
quote: Perform your scientific test Thomas. You demanded empirical evidence and a scientific test. When you do it "DO NOT BE UNBELIEVING, BUT BELIEVING" In other words it is also a matter of the human will. There's a saying "A perform convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." "BE ... believing." This has to mean that there was still the CHOICE for Thomas to make to BE unbelieving if he really wanted to. That's where a lot of people are. They simply will not be believing. They don't want to be changed by God. God is into changing lives. Well, Jesus also informs Thomas that not everyone in the world is going to be able to do such an experiment. Some will have to believe the word of God in the New Testament -
quote: Hallelujah ringo. I GOT THE BLESSING !! Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
He told us to ABIDE IN HIM. Doing what He told us to do is to realize He is AVAILABLE and to get into the realm of Jesus and remain, linger, and ABIDE in Him.
Calling on the name of the Lord Jesus helps that abiding. And it is not only our faith. That is half the story. The other have is the FAITHFULNESS of Christ. Our faith PLUS His being FAITHFUL. That's the path to reality.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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Original Sin. How important is Original Sin ?
That may be arguable. But I wager there is NO ONE reading this discussion who does not have the same kind of experience that Paul discribes he had in Romans chapter 7, particularly verses 7 through 24. Show me a man or woman, boy or girl, who says they do not have the same experience of Paul in Romans 7-24 and I'll show you a liar.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
A Good Hymn on Adam and Christ which speaks of the practical application of the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ to overcome the effects of the fallen Adamic nature of sin inherited from the fall of Adam.
This is about freedom from sinfulness found in enjoying Christ in the regenerated spirit which becomes one with the Holy Spirit in the born again experience:
quote: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I presented an alternate view of the importance of original sin in a previous post:
Message 316 I think it is one of the most evil ideas ever to come from the fevered mind of a shaman.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Doing what he told us to do is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant. It is to kneel down when talking to children so you are at their level, to smile and say hi to the stranger, to put the carts in the return at the store, to hold the door open for those encumbered.
What you try to market is simply a worthless cop-out. There is no path to reality, reality is the path.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. Ayn Rand ? Tell me, Ayn Rand carried on an affair with one of her students. When the handsome young pupil decided to dump her, she turned on him with all the intellectual power she could muster to declare him some kind of enemy of her philosophical truth. Ouch! Sounds like sour grapes disguised in philosophy to me. Now I think she was a great story teller. I like Anthem. I like The Fountain Head. I know the stories. I have not read completely through either book. But if I recall, Ayn Rand argued that for two people to have intimate relations with each other who were committed already to marriage to someone else - was a rational act. If you neighbor cheats his/her spouse and commits adultery with yours, do you agree with Ms. Rand that that is a "rational act" ? Ms Rand continues:
He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man. I don't think the capacity for sexual enjoyment came only AFTER the disobedience of Adam. The desire for pleasure should have been indicated in the CREATED man in that God placed in the garden "every tree that was pleasant to the sight ...". I don't think they only derived pleasure to behold AFTER the disobedience of Adam. Rather Adam was created with an enjoying organ - his human soul. Neither do I agree that Adam was that "robot in the Garden of Eden." Quite the opposite is witnessed in that he had responsibility to make his OWN choice. Had he been a robot there would have been no need for God to warn him about wrong choices. Now I would believe that a part of his being had not been awakened to function. This would regard something of the human conscience. And its awakening seems to me to be a kind of breaking system such that if something should go wrong in his choice - this internal breaking system of his awakened conscience would at least LIMIT the downward decline into further rotten choices in behavior. I don't mean it would totally halt the degradation but restrain it somewhat - limit its influence. That is given that some men and women would listen to their conscience. History indicates that some listen and some do not. And sometimes you and I listen to conscience and at other times we don't. And sometimes we argue with the conscience or try to bribe it to shut up. That means we do something ELSE good in a hope that what it told us and we ignored, we can get away with. "I will not listen to you conscience. But I will do something ELSE which is good in the hope that concerning THIS thing you will leave me alone." But the conscience doesn't listen to arguments very well. It knows what it knows what it knows - period. It won't argue with you. And it will catch up with you to either finally condemn you or even commend you. The redemption of Jesus Christ puts the conscience at final rest with one's self and with God. From Ayn Rand and her adultery - Ayn Rand and her adultery - Ethics - Objectivism Online Forum
quote: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Those are your words, not the Bible's words. What Jesus said was to test the evidence so that you will believe. He didn't suggest that you'd have to make an effort to believe after seeing the evidence.
In other words it is also a matter of the human will. jaywill writes:
Then you'll be blessed for believing in unicorns too.
quote:Hallelujah ringo. I GOT THE BLESSING !!
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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But more importantly to me is what Jesus felt to ADD to his challenge for Thomas to perform empirical test. Read it CAREFULLY -
quote: Perform your scientific test Thomas. You demanded empirical evidence and a scientific test. When you do it "DO NOT BE UNBELIEVING, BUT BELIEVING" In other words it is also a matter of the human will. There's a saying "A perform convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." "BE ... believing." This has to mean that there was still the CHOICE for Thomas to make to BE unbelieving if he really wanted to. I call shenanigans. You've just twisted that story to fit with what you want it to say. Thomas just stuck his finger in the hole in Jesus' hands. You can't get any more direct proof than that. Thomas had no choice to believe, it was proven to him instead. I can't believe that you'd take something so blatantly obvious and turn it completely around to say exactly the opposite of what it is saying. That's pretty messed up.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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I call shenanigans. You've just twisted that story to fit with what you want it to say. Thomas just stuck his finger in the hole in Jesus' hands. You can't get any more direct proof than that. Thomas had no choice to believe, it was proven to him instead. I assume that Thomas performed the proof. It really is not totally clear that he did. It is IS clear that the doubter changed his mind and confessed Jesus the man as Lord and God. As for me twisting the story ? Every word of Jesus Christ is exceedingly significant - "And do not be unbelieving, but believing" was not written there just to fill out the space on the scroll. Thomas still could have doubted. In fact some STILL did doubt even in Matthew 28:17 after His resurrection -
"And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him, though some doubted." I am sensative to miss munipulating any Bible passage. But I don't think I have done so with John 20:27. Judas Iscariot was witness to all the speeches, all the miracles, all the signs as the other apostles. He chose not to believe and we never calling Jesus as Lord.
I can't believe that you'd take something so blatantly obvious and turn it completely around to say exactly the opposite of what it is saying. That's pretty messed up. Verse 27 strongly implies that Thomas, at that point, had a choice. Perhaps what you do not comprehend here is that understanding WHO Jesus is is something that results in a PERSONAL transformation. It was not a purely objective matter which did not touch Thomas's life. What was to believed was that this Christ was HIS [Thomas's] Lord and God. He is RISEN to be YOUR Lord, to be MY Lord.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Those are your words, not the Bible's words. What Jesus said was to test the evidence so that you will believe. That is right. He accommodated Thomas. Not everyone will receive that same accommodation that Jesus allowed doubting Thomas.
He didn't suggest that you'd have to make an effort to believe after seeing the evidence. Not an "effort" as much as a surrender. In the final scene of the those lost forever, it lists some of the reprentative reasons some people will perish. Read carefully -
quote: Before the Bible mentions the "unbelieving" it means "the cowardly" . I think this means that some men believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but because of fear of something, perhaps fear of losing face or reputation or the gaining the displeasure of other people, they are cowards to receive Him as Lord. Ie. - The cowardly - really know the truth about the Son of God, but FEAR to receive Christ as Lord-Savior. The unbelieving simply do not believe. Christ's words were not idle. They were significant. Having been presented with an infallible proof, Thomas still was exhorted to be not unbelieving, but believing. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Did you ever bother researching a little about Lewis and his use of logical fallacies? Or is learning not really that important?
The whole faith trumps evidence thing?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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