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Author Topic:   Feedback learning and generalization in robotics takes a step forward.
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 8 of 66 (710547)
11-06-2013 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


I can see the basic function...
You mention possible replacement careers, but I have an issue with robots replacing humans in one of these areas.
You state,
jar writes:
So what should we do with all the [...] waiters, waitresses,
I did work as a server for 9 years and this is a job that I do not think can be replaced, or should be replaced with robotics. It could happen at some point, but an important aspect in dining out is the ambience and the conversation the server is able to give. Also, many states have such a low minimum wage for serving employees that employers will actually end up paying more to gain access to robotic servers than they would pay to maintain a human serving staff. Another aspect is the randomness that is inherently existent in the food service industry. I can guarantee you that no single night of work in nine years ever went the same as a night that proceeded it. The amount of possible solutions that would need to be programmed into the computer would be immense and would require very in depth reactions.
An example, I worked in a restaurant that had a long slide contained within the restaurant. Children would randomly be going down the slide, and would occasionally get in the way, Plus, there is a dance floor with adults line dancing right next to the slide area. I once was walking a tray and a child jumped off the end of the slide knocking the tray out of my hands. This only hapened once in four years at this restaurant, but the learning curve of the robot would require it to make an adjustment everytime that it passed this slide for any motion visible. This would increase possible errors, for simply a flash of movement that a human server could compensate for on his or her own.
Because of these reasons, I think robotics are a long way off from replacing humans in the area of food service. Of course, I could definitely be incorrect on this, it just seems like too inconsistent of an industry for robotics to serve much purpose in this arena...

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 10:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:21 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 13 of 66 (710554)
11-06-2013 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
11-06-2013 3:21 PM


Re: I can see the basic function...
jar writes:
Did you read the article?
Yes, I did read the article, I do think there are many jobs that these robots can be applied to, I just do not see the ability to make it work with servers.
jar writes:
The point is that the Cornell robot is NOT simply programmed but rather taught to learn, to take correction from the people in real time and to then be able to apply what is learned to apply to new situations in a generalized fashion.
Yes, I understood that. However, my point was that serving tables is less about what you learn at the beginning and more about the possible reactions in every single scenario. A robot can definitely learn the basics, but in any fast paced restaurant, the night will run into multiple different scenarios every time, with a huge assortment of possible solutions. A robot can be taught one possibility at a time. Imagine the amount of broken dishes throughout that learning process. As a future restaurant owner, I would rather pay 3.75 an hour to a server and teach them how to make that into 10.00 an hour or more through tips. In fact, the key phrase you used was the robot responds in a generalized manner...that is the exact problem I was pointing out with the passing of the slide, with how many different scenarios could happen there. Even myself as a human could not anticipate the child jumping off and running directly into me, imagine the issues that a robot who is programmed as it goes would run into.
jar writes:
I also spent some time in the food service industry and maybe we can swap tales sometime, but start here. Think back to how you learned your jobs, then compare that to what is in the article.
I get what you are saying, but why would owner's replace cheaper, more adaptable employees with more expensive robots, who can only operate based off instruction? The possibilities of events is astounding and would take far too long to teach every possible scenario to the robot, at least as far as I see it.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 4:47 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 16 of 66 (710558)
11-06-2013 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
11-06-2013 4:47 PM


Re: I can see the basic function...
Right, I understood that. It has its original programming, with the addition of real time commands that can alter programming and teach new lessons. I am sure that this will add to new learning for the robot. The problem I am seeing is in the amount of variable solutions within the food service industry. This is, of course, secondary to the conversation and ambience aspect of serving tables, which is a very important part of the dining out experience.
What would you say about the slide situation as far as the robot coping with it? Each and every time the robot passes this area will be a new scenario with different flashes of motion from different angles, all within a restaurant that can also seat around 500-700 people at one time. The amount of variable actions the robot can take will be immense and could lead to the incorrect action...
Let's say that a kid jumps off the end of the slide and the robot's programming informs it to move to the side. However, at that same time there is a guest walking on the other side of the robot. Well, in that situation as a server, I would bring my second hand up to hold the tray and take the hit from the child, while simultaneously not moving into the other guest. I can, after all, explain away an action I had no part in versus one where I took steps to run into someone else. Or, I could speed up my walk in anticipation of the child jumping off because I have seen this child act rambunctiously throughout the evening. These are only a couple of examples of possible solutions, many of which are effective, but some have better results toward the establishment and the guests. With the immense cost of implementing and operating a robotic serving staff, I would still prefer the flexible thinking of humans at 3.75 an hour to the implementation of tech to achieve the exact same purpose.
So, how would the robot react in these types of situations that would make them preferable to a human being, especially when considering the cost of the upgrade?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 6:48 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 11-07-2013 9:37 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 57 of 66 (711050)
11-14-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
11-11-2013 4:29 PM


Re: Tip Sharing
NosyNed writes:
I'll check with some friends who do that kind of work but I think it is the norm that tips are shared with everone, front and back.
IIRC, one thing done is the first 10 % (say) is shared and anything over is the servers (or servers and bus ) or whatever is agreed to or mandated by the place.
Jon writes:
I don't think that would be legal in the U.S.
Ned does not have it completely correct, but sharing of tips is a required aspect of working in any food service industry.
When I worked in a steakhouse, 10% of my total bar sales was tipped out to the bar, 3 dollars was tipped to the stocker, 5% of my total sales was tipped to a busser, and 1% of my total sales was tipped to a food runner. If I made $180 dollars, I could expect to walk with approximately $100-$120 of that, dependent on how much my guests liked me. The rest goes elsewhere.
Now, Ned has it wrong in that these tip outs are not generally shared by the entire staff, because for a restaurant employee to receive tips, they must be classified in a job code as a tipped employee. Cooks, chefs, dishwashers do not fall into this category and are therefore ineligible for tip outs.
However, you have an error in thinking about Minnesota being the standard that most states follow. In fact, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, 36 states out of 50 do not pay servers more than 5.00 per hour, although the Federal minimum wage does exist and companies must make up for it if a server's tips do not bring them to that wage. As someone who relied on a tip based income for 9 years, I can tell you that it is not something extra....even in Minnesota. It is culture in the United States that these are tipped positions. In fact, without tips I would not have been able to afford to live off the $2.13 an hour I made in wages when I first started serving. If you want to live in a place where tipping is not appropriate, then it is up to you to go to one of the countries where it is included or the servers are actually well paid. Until then, you feeling like tipping is not necessary is incorrect, ignorant, and rude to those who are relying on that to make a living.
Finally, you mention the rude service you receive, well I am not sure about servers in Minnesota (except a couple of them who I know that moved there recently), but most servers I have ever had have been quite excellent, friendly and timely with food delivery. Perhaps the fact that you do not like tipping has gotten around? There have been certain people who I have served where it was guaranteed that they would tip you $0.25 on ten dollars, and that man did not get good service from me because someone who doesn't udnerstand that I work for tips does not deserve my time. So, maybe you have made a name for yourself as a cheap diner in your area...cause guess what, servers talk.
As to the topic, I still don't see the applicability of robots in the food service industry (as servers). I would need to see the robots make the correct call in very crazy scenarios that would not be expected (something that happens in restaurants every day) before I would trust it...Like, what if a North American Ringtailed cat had taken up residence inside the restaurant (you will all laugh, but I have seen it), how would the robot compensate for this thing running across its path while carrying a tray with 30 drinks on it?
US Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 11-11-2013 4:29 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by xongsmith, posted 11-14-2013 12:44 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 11-14-2013 5:19 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
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