Importance of Original Sin

That God EXISTS Paul does echo the Old Testament that the creation of the world shows that to all men. That is the intention of Paul's discussion from Romans 1:18 - 32.And from 2:1 through verse 16 he is explaining why God's condemnation is upon the self righteous people from both Jew and Greek cultures. This may be considered a continuation of his words about God's condemnation being upon all of mankind, starting from 1:18 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness." (1:18)Though the work of the law is written on the hearts of all created men, we do need the revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Paul closes his epistle - "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages but has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25,26) Though the work of God's moral law is written on the hearts of the nations, God has still manifested a proclamation about His Son which is to be believed and obeyed. This revelation has been hidden in past ages WHILE the intuitive moral conscience has been in all created men.Notice that though Paul says that in principle the nations, the Gentiles have the work of the law in their hearts to obey and be justified by, yet they need to learn about justification by faith in Christ.

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What then? Are we [Jews] better? Not at all! For we have previously charged BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS that they are all under sin,

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Even as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands, there is none who seeks out God.
All have turned aside; together thy have become useless;
There is none who does good; there is not so much as one.

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Their throat is an opened grave; with their tongues they practice deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Swift are their feet to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their ways,
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes."

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Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may fall under the judgment of God;

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Because out of works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin."

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Now here I catch myself in an error. I think I wrote previously that the singular word SIN is not written by Paul until after Romans 5:12. But "for through the law is the clear knowledge of SIN" in chapter two renders me in error.Anyway, I would draw your attention to the need for the Gospel of Christ to be revealed to the Gentiles BECAUSE ... "every mouth may be stopped and all the world may fall under the judgment of God." Yes, without the Bible something of the moral law of God is written on your heart. But you are still in need of the Gospel of Jesus because like all the world you fall under the judgment of God.So in spite of a revealing of God in the heart of the nations, Paul says that as a Gospel preacher he is a debtor both to the Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to foolish (Rom. 1:14).I would not take a chance on saying " I don't need that revelation of Paul's gospel message." Okay, your conscience. That is a kind of wisdom you have.But you see, what you are doing is using that conscience to rationalize that you can disobey the Gospel of Christ to believe in the Son of God.You know that the Gospel of the New Testament is proclaimed for the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 16:26). But you want to argue with God's apostle that because the work of the law is written on your heart, that revelation excuses you to disobey the revelation of the Gospel and its requirement of the obedience of faith.It sounds like you are banking on being able to kind of checkmate God in His own thoughts. Risky ringo. Do you think you can outsmart God this way?Have you thought about this? We are dealing with a God who is not just pretty good, or real good, or very good, but ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS.So Paul does not end his letter in chapter two with the revelation of moral law written on all men's hearts. He immediately goes on to speak of "the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ to those who believe ... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (3:22,23) So we have so-called "Original Sin" that constituted all men sinners and condemned. And we have in Christ, if you will, "Original Righteousness" by which we may be constituted righteous before God.

The Old Testament shows (along with the New) that man is born with a sin nature -

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Jeremiah 13:23 - "Can the Cushite [Ethiopian] change his skin, Or the leopard his spots? Then you also may be able to do good, Who are accustomed to do evil."

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As natural as the dark skin to the Ethiopian or the spots on a leopard is the tendency for man to commit sins. Sinning is down in his nature from birth, exactly as the Cushite is born dark sinned or the leopard born with spots.This sinning nature was inherited from Adam after he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.The Old Testament reveals man going astray from the womb because going astray from God is part of his fallen nature:

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Psalm 58:3 - "The wicked are estranged from the womb; They err from their birth, speaking lies."

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Though people are not completely without choice, no one can fully overcome the sin nature which causes them to go astray "from the womb" and transgress with moral errors"from their birth, speaking lies.The Tanach reveals David, the man after God's own heart, seeing in deep anguish his sinful nature with which he was BORN -

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Psalm 51:4,5 - "Against You and You alone have I sinned, And I have done what is evil in Your sight. Therefore You are righteous when You speak; You are clear when You judge.

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Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

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Though David was conceived by his mother in iniquity and sin, in his innermost God created conscience he does have wisdom of what is RIGHT. He just too often does not have the power to resist the sinning nature.

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Verse 5b,6 - " ... And in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, You delight in truth in the inward parts; And in the hidden part You would make known wisdom to me."

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Man needs cleansing from the guilt of his sins and deliverance from the power from the sin nature with which he was born.As for man's heart, God pronounces it deceitful and desperately wicked. Only God knows the depths of man's self deception.

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Jeremiah 17:9 - " The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is incurable; Who can know it? I, Jehovah, search the heart And test the inward parts, Even to give to each one according to his ways, According to the fruit of his deeds."

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Solomon say he knows that originally God made man upright. However the created man became fallen - seeking out many wicked schemes and crooked devices -

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Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes."

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This agrees with God originally making man "very good" (Gen. 1:31) but man falling under Satan's power. Man was poisoned by the sin nature when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.In the oldest book in the Old Testament, Job, he himself knew that man cannot be absolutely righteous before God -

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Job 9:1,2 - "Then Job answered and said, I do indeed know that it is so. But how can a man be righteous before God ?"

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Comparatively to other men Job was righteous. But he confesses himself neither he nor any man is up to the righteous standard of God absolutely.
The wise man Bildad laments that no one born of woman can be morally pure -

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Job 25:4 - "How then can a man be righteous with God? And how can one born of a woman be pure?

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Indeed, even the moon has no brightness and the stars are not pure in His eyes. How much less a man, a maggot; and the son of man, a worm!"

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These ancient patriarchs knew of the fallen sinful nature of man. So born man is prone to troubles from birth completely naturally -

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Job 5:6,7 - "For evil does not come forth from the dust, Nor does trouble spring forth from the ground. But man is born unto trouble, just as sparks fly upward."

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As natural as the sparks of a flame fly upwards, so man's iniquity throws him into moral troubles.So many people, were comparatively described as righteous, in the absolute sense, none was righteous, not one. That is until the Son of God Jesus was born. He was completely perfect before His Father and could be the Lamb of God to make propitiation for the sins of the world.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So you need to understand the "Gospel of Jesus", the separation of the sheep from the goats. Paul himself said that faith without works is dead. It's what you do that counts, not what tendencies you inherited. The Gospel of Christ is to do good instead of evil. Believing in somebody means believing in what he stood for and doing what he wanted you to do, not just believing who he was.

The sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 is, as you suggest, not concerning the Gospel preached in the church age. You are right that the bases of the sheep and the goat judgement is not about the Gospel of the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus.This passage is a favorite among those who want to de-emphasize and even oppose the justification by faith. It is a good passage if there ever was one, to show another side of God's judgment.I will not go into a long analysis of Matthew 25:31-46 today unless someone requests it. That is right. And in the previous passage that you refered to, Matthew 25:31-46, the sheep and the goats you have three parties:1.) Sheep who did not know Jesus.2.) Goats who did not know Jesus.3.) These the least of His brothers, who did know Jesus.And the first two categories are judged concerning how they treated the third category.Hint: At one time Jesus said

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"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

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And whoever gives to one of these little ones a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matt. 10:40-42)

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At the end of this age there is a situation in which some people who know nothing of the Gospel will be judged by how they treated those related to Jesus.But you and I, we know who Jesus Christ is and what He stood for. You and I will probably not be among those who stand before Christ as sheep and goats at that judgment.If you want to bank on it, you go ahead.Having said this, the application of the teaching is as good one in many ways when it comes to offering help to the destitute. But the proper interpretation I think is about some people living at the end of this age through the great tribulation. These are not resurrected judged. These are those living on the earth when the Lord comes to sit on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land immediately after the great tribulation and the battle of Armageddon.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The sheep did deeds of kindness to the brothers of Jesus, down to even the least of them. They were not aware that these brothers were actually an extension of Jesus Christ. What the sheep did for them, they unaware, were doing to Christ Himself.The goats neglected the destitute condition of the brothers of Jesus, down to even the least of them. They too were not aware that these people they were so mistreating were an extension of Jesus Christ. What they failed to do they failed to do to Christ Himself.What about the brothers, down to the least of them? Could they be in either catagory ?The brothers of Jesus, down to the least of them cannot be of the sheep. They are instead objects of the deeds OF the sheep. The brothers would know their Elder Brother. But the sheep appear not to know who this Elder Brother, Jesus Christ is. They also had no opportunity to do good to anyone because these brothers where in such destitute condition themselves:

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"I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in, Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."(v.35,36)

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The brothers of Jesus, down to the least of them cannot be among the goats. They are objects of the deeds OF the goats. They also would have no opportunity to perform good for they are in such a destitute condition -

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"For I was hungry and you did not give Me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give Me a drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me."

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So there are THREE groups of people in this passage. And the destiny of the first two groups - the sheep and the goats, is related to their treatment or neglect of the third category. The third category is neither part of the sheep or the goats. They stand aside and are referred to by Jesus.

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"And the King will answer and say to them, [sheep and goats] Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of THESE ..., the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me." (v.40)

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"Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of THESE ... , neither have you done it to Me." (v.45)

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Now I want you all to imagine a world. Imagine a world where being a Christian is a public nuisance. Imagine that a mature Christian for whom no one can level criticism about their behavior. Imagine the least of the disciples, one for whom there is a lot of hypocrisy to complain about. Imagine a world in which Christians cannot buy food, are sick, are refugees, are naked, are in prison, are hungry.Imagine that some people who maybe never heard of the New Testament and maybe couldn't get there hands on one if they had heard. Imagine some people listening to their conscience - "This is not right that these spiritual people are being so harassed, so persecuted, unable to purchase necessities."Imagine some other people, cold, eager to get rid of these theist types anyway. Imagine attitudes like those displayed by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, or Danniel Dennett grown and run amok in some soon to be future."The sooner we get rid of these people, the better. Let them starve or join us. Let them go naked and drop this God thing. Let them be sick and have to crawl groveling to our medicines and our science. Let them be thrown in prison.Imagine Matthew 25:31-46 in this regard. Then look again at verse 31 -

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"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and His will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

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And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left."

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These are not nations resurrected from the graves. These are nations alive at His coming. These are nations living at that time to witness the Messiah setting up His throne of glory in the Holy Land.This day will come and is apart from the last judgment spoken of AFTER the millennium in Revelation 20. This is a judgment upon those nations who survive through the great tribulation at the end of this age.A factor in their judgment is HOW they responded to the intense persecution of the brothers of Jesus Christ - down to the very least of them. What they did or did not do to these people is what they did or did not do to this King who now establishes His throne of glory and administration over the globe.Now I have a question for someone who wants to contemplate it.
Do you think that there will be ANY Atheists among the sheep there ?
I'll wait to see an answer or two before I give my opinion. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You're misreading that passage."All nations" - everybody on earth - are divided into two groups, the right and the left, the sheep and the goats. There is nobody who is not in one of those groups.The sheep are rewarded for helping their fellow humans, whether sheep or goats. The goats are punished for failing to help their fellow humans, whether sheep or goats.There is no distinction between sheep and goats before the judgement. Only God divides the sheep from the goats. We don't. There again you seem to be trying to avoid responisbility for your actions, to remove yourself from those who are judged.

On the contrary, the sheep and the goats are the members of "all nations", everybody on earth, no exceptions. Yes, they are objects of each other's deeds. I am the object of your deeds and you are the object of my deeds. There is no mutual exclusivity between subject and object. Exactly. They don't need to know who He is to do what He wants them to do.Conversely, even if the goats do know who He is, they failed to do what He wanted them to do. If there are atheists who have fed the hungry, etc. they will be among the sheep. If there are Christians who have not fed the hungry, etc. they will be among the goats. The judgement is about do or not do, not about atheist or Christian.

Those who are the Lord's down to the least are the EKKLESIA called out. They are the Body of Christ.This same matter is seen when Saul of Tarsus persecuted the first Christians. The Lord Jesus from heaven said - " Saul, Saul, who are you persecuting Me?" (Acts 9:4) Saul was "breathing threatening and murder against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1). Saul learned a great lesson on that day. His persecution of the disciples was his persecution against Christ Himself -

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"And as he went, he drew near to Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. And he fell on the ground and heard a voice saying, Saul, Saul why are you persecuting Me?

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And he [Saul] said Who are You, Lord ? And He said I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (vs. 3-5)

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But what a minute! Saul is persecuting these Jesus people. Saul is persecuting this church. Saul is persecuting these followers of Jesus Christ. But Jesus, speaking to Saul from heaven, says " Why are you persecuting ME?" The disciples had become JOINED to Jesus Christ. And they were members of Christ. To persecute Christ's disciples was to persecute Christ for they were joined to Christ.This became a governing vision for the rest of the Apostle Paul's life. He alone spoke of the Body of Christ. He alone taught that the Christians are members of His Body and are even called "the Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12) that is the BODY-Christ.

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"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (v.12)

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Many believers = many members = one body = "the Christ".The vision of the called out ones, the church, being members of the Body of Christ stayed with Paul for the rest of his ministry. He never forget this reality.He goes on in First Corinthians 12 -

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"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, Whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit."

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Yes they come from the nations. They come from the Gentiles. But the Body of Christ is the CORPORATE Christ. Paul writes this to "the church in Corinth" . As you must know there were a lot of problems with these Christians in the church in Corinth. The problems of spiritual maturity did not effect their standing as the corporate Christ. They are members of Christ .What Paul saw in the book of Acts is what the NATIONS must learn at this judgment of Christ when He comes back. The least of these my brothers is a member of Himself. And to persecute His brothers gives rise to Christ saying "Why do you persecute ME ?" The CHURCH is the called out ones. And in this Body of Christ their status is that the ONE divine Spirit puts them into a new humanity - "one new man". There cannot be Jew and Greek. There cannot be male and female. There cannot be the old social stratifications based on race, nationality and even sex - [quote] "For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ." (Gal. 3:27,28) We do not need to try to re-invent the wheel. We need to come back to the New Testament in the way of being recovered to the normal practice. We need to come out of Christianity and back to the normal church life.So back to Matthew 25. These, the least of His brothers were called OUT of the nations. And they are joined to Christ. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" ( 1 Cor. 6:17) Those who take the passage in a this way count all men as brothers of Christ. They envision a brotherhood of man which is necessarily the brothers of Jesus Christ.I do not object to a concept of a brotherhood of all created men. Cain said wrongly "Am I my brother's keeper?" when he murdered Abel. However in the very same Gospel Jesus distinguishes those who do the will of God as His relatives as opposed to all people born.

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" And someone said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You. But He answered and said to him who spoke to Him, Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?

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And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in the heavens, he is My brohers and sister and mother." (Matt. 12:47-50)

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Here Jesus is not speaking of all men as His brothers. He is speaking of His disciples doing His will as His brothers.Now let's talk about the will of Jesus in Matthew's Gospel. When Jesus goes to the cross He certainly expresses what the will of God is, and His will. That is that His blood was shed for the justification of sinners.

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" ... Jesus took bread and blessed it, and He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body. And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you,

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For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:26-28)

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The will of God includes the breaking of His body on Calvary for the redemption of sinners.The will of God includes the pouring out of His blood to redeem sinners, justifying them, that they may be forgiven.The will of God includes "the new covenant".Anyone opposing the redemptive work of Jesus thinking that they are doing the will of God, will perish. It will not matter how many kind acts towards the brotherhood of man you do. And if you think by opposing Christ's redemptive work and instead hoping charity towards men will justify you, you are mistaken.The SHEEP are not opposing the Gospel of Christ. It seems rather that they are ignorant of it. And the GOATS are also ignorant.This is when the Lord comes back and establishes the throne of His global government in the Holy Land. This at the conclusion of the church age in which the Gospel has been preached to all the world. If you think that today you may teach men not to regard the redemption of the Christ in the New Covenant but instead seek to be justified by humanitarian works, how can you expect God will approve of your anti-Christ teaching ?The new covenant is the will of God. And the first act of obedience needed is to believe it. I am not sure what you mean here.
But Christ Himself, as God-man, divides there the sheep and the goats "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with HIm, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and HE will separate them from one another ..." Of course Jesus does the dividing and not we.
There will be a distinction.
That distinction is indicated by the left hand and the right hand of Jesus Christ there.Now the passages says "When the Son of Man comes in His glory ..." . You must realize that when Christ comes in His glory He comes with some of His OWN who were His because of the new covenant.

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" ... Behold, the Lord came with with [Lit., in, or among] with myriads of saints." (Jude 14)

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Jesus comes with myriads of His saints. So there are the sheep of nations awaiting Him, goats of nations awaiting Him, and the myriads of saints who come WITH Him, having previously been temporarily raptured.

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" When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day. (Second Thess. 1:10)

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Some of His saints will come with Him as a reward to them. He will be glorified IN His saints. And many will marvel at these glorified ones. So some overcoming saints arrive with Jesus. And on the earth is awaiting nations living whom He will divide into the sheep and the goats.There are three categories of peoples in the teaching of Matthew 25:31-46. First Thessalonians 3:13 also assures us that Jesus Christ is coming WITH His saints -

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"So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints."

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So the truth of the matter is that after the great tribulation the Lord Jesus will descend with myriads of His saints. And awaiting Him and these brothers of His are the goats and sheep among the living nations on earth.Therefore there are three categories of people in Matthew 25:31-46. Not at all. Totally a false dichotomy on your part.I am not removed from those who are judged totally. This judgment is not of the Christians.I assure you Mr. Ringo, I could easily spend the rest of the week entirely with posts filled up concerning the responsibility and judgment
of Christians. Judgment BEGINS at the house of God. It is true that God begins with those who are suppose to know His will. That is His own household.Maybe one of these days I will open a thread devoted entirely to your concern - the responsibility of those saved by grace. "So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each one from God." (1 Cor. 3:5) Paul is writing to the Christians in the church in Corinth.All who are saved eternally must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. But that judgment seat of Christ is not the judgment that we see in Matthew 25:31-46. This judgment of God's saints takes place here BEFORE the judgment of the sheep and goat nations - "For we [including Paul himself] must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." (Second Corinthians 5:10) If you wanted to invest a small amount of funds for an exceedingly valuable little book of only 80 pages, you should get a book entitled - "The Judgment Seat of Christ" by D.M. PantonSearch on Schoettle Publishing Co. online. That is an excellent book on the subject of the responsibility and judgment of those for whom the eternal redemption has been accomplished in the affirmative.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No, this is a judgment of those alive at the time Christ comes from heaven to the earth. Nothing is said about them being resurrected as in the judgment of Revelation 20.This judgment is BEFORE the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
The judgment of the great white throne of all of the earth who have died is AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.Christ is the judge of the living and the dead. He is not so necessarily that judge all at one time. Then you regard this passage as being about the last judgment of all mankind by God ? In that period of history, it appears so. In that period of history there is probably no other choice. These nations come out of the time of the reign of the antichrist in the great tribulation. For we know that that is the world situation for three and one half years before Christ touches down on the the earth. Then you are saying that the Lord Jesus will condemn some of His brothers to the eternal fire of eternal punishment. This makes no sense. And your interpretation definitely is against the whole tenor of too much of the rest of the New Testament.The Lord Jesus can discipline His own people - His brothers down to the least. And He will discipline some of us after His second coming. None of those who have become His suffer eternal punishment.The goats go into eternal punishment (v.46) which is the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (v.41).Believers among the goats means believers go to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. That is an erroneous and false teaching.This suffering refers to the suffering during the events of Revelation 14 and a few other places discribing the condition of the earth in the great tribulation.For example -

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"And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freeman and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead. And that no one may be able to buy or sell except him who has the mark, that is , the name of the beast or then number of his name."

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So all those who refuse the mark cannot buy food. This will explain the hunger in Matthew 25:31-46. It would also explain the terrible destitute condition of the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.Now no one is saying by this "Hey, Don't go feed the hungry. Don't go visit the sick or those who are in prison." That is not the point. I visit someone who is in prison with a 20 year sentence. If you perform deeds like this that is very good.If you want to put your trust in these deeds over the blood of Jesus for redemption to justify you, you go ahead and try. But you won't get the Bible to agree with your choice.The Son of God did not die in vain. He died because there was no other way that we could be saved forever. And that is why I referred to the verses on the new covenant. Jeremiah said the new covenant included that God would by no means remember our iniquities any more. And that is what Jesus meant when He said the shedding of His blood was for the forgiveness of sins.Now, THAT is in the book of Matthew ALSO. I cannot cut it out with a pair of scissors and just talk about Matthew 25.IF I am visiting the sick from this day forward for the rest of my life, I still have the sins of my past before God. They ALL must be judged by God. And they were all judged by God in Christ's death on the cross on our behalf.Too much of the New Testament talks about that to allow me to just imagine Matthew 25:31-46 is all I need to know about the teaching of Jesus.But Matthew 25:31-46 is there. And I think I have fairly shown what place it fulfills. My opinion is that probably no one who is able to argue either way on this Forum today will be one of those goats or sheep. That would be particularly true of someone whose familiarity with the New Testament furnished them with Universalist like arguments undermining Christ's redemption.No, He did not die for nothing. No, His death is not irrelevant or just the death of a human martyr to serve as an example of dedication.

I don't think there will at that time be atheists among the sheep. And this is why -God will cause the situation to polarize on the earth in such a way that people will either believe in God or they will believe in the Antichrist. How do I know that ?Revelation 14 says that an eternal gospel is announced by an angel/s from the air at the absolute darkest time of the great tribulation. And the content of that "eternal gospel" is one of fearing God the Creator. For by that time the world and the cosmos will be in such upheaval that people will be polarized to believe one thing or the other.

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"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

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Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters.

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1.) At the close of this age nature will be in upheaval with both natural calamities and supernatural calamities as God is warning all the earth that He is about to judge.2.) The hardest of the hard do not care because they are worshipping the Antichrist who proclaims himself to be god.3.) To counter act this activity of the Antichrist and his false prophet, the supernatural proclamation of an eternal gospel to fear the Creator of the universe is announced to counteract Antichrist's proclamation.4.) This eternal gospel preached in the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21) differs from the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) preached in the church age. The Christian evangelists of the church age have a gospel of grace which basic contents are repentance unto God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) that men may be forgiven of their sins and born again as the children of God (Luke 24:47; John 1:12) .
But the basic contents of the eternal gospel in Revelation 14 is that men should fear God and worship God that they may not be deceived and follow Antichrist. Rather than worshiping the powerful Antichrist men should be brought back to the genuine worship of God, who made heaven and earth (v.7).5.) Only man is privileged to preach the gospel of grace on the earth today (Acts 10:3-6). But the eternal gospel will be preached by the angel in the air at the close of this age.I do not believe anyone who does not fear God will be inclined to do the things which the sheep are doing in Matthew 25:31-46. They may not know who the Son of Man was. But they have no totally corrupted their human conscience to suppress the knowledge of God the Creator. For they witness that only God could be doing the things to judge the world during the great tribulation.And we should remember that Paul, before he explains justification by faith in Christ, teaches that no one is with excuse to not believe in a Creator God. See Romans 1:18-22 .My opinion is that there will be no atheists who just like to do humanitarian deeds to the persecuted brothers of Christ. Indeed it may be against the law to do so at that time anyway.

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'Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty and have given You a drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You? And when have we seen You sick and have come to You?

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And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me."

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I think that the eternal gospel preached about fearing God the Creator has altogether to do with these sheep going against the Antichrist to hound to death the Lord's brothers left destitute and in refugee status during the reign of the Antichrist.The conscience of the goats has probably been seared as with a hot iron.Both groups will be surprised that the King is the Son of God, the Son of Man reigning over all the planet when He comes. The above logic demonstrates how it is about conscience and belief in God the Creator or belief in Antichrist as god - a lie.Now what about immature Christians ? What about them ? Ringo is concerned for them. They are judged according to REWARD and STATION in the millennial kingdom. They are not dealt with by eternal punishment but loss of reward if Christ sees that to be appropriate.And I have irrefutable proof of this from First Corinthians 3 -

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"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is.

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If anyone's work [Christian] which he has built upon the foundation [Christ v.11] remains, he will receive a reward.

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If anyone's work [Christian] is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

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So all the Christians will be examined by Christ. Some will be rewarded. Some will suffer loss but will themselves be saved. They will not perish forever.So the concept of goats in Matthew 25:46 consisting of some naughty Christians is not reliable. For the goats do not just lose a reward of suffer some loss. They go to an eternal fire which is called "eternal punishment". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think there will at that time be many Christians among the sheep and the goats are almost all Christians because that is what Matthew 25 says.

Actually ringo's point was a thoughtful one. I did not consider it trivial.But the Lord's brothers could not be among those condemned to eternal punishment. This I believe unless someone can make the New Testament show that a person saved into the family relationship with God can be de-familied. And many have tried. Arminian theology would argue precisely that.If ringo wants to prove that the suffering Lord's brothers down to the least could be among the sheep, he would be advized to put full force behind Arminian teaching that once a man is saved by Christ he may be unsaved.I could make the argument for him forcefully. But why should I help him?1.) They goats cannot ALL be made up of the Lord's brothers which He now disowns.2.) They goats could not contain SOME of the Lord's brothers which He now disowns.What about the sheep ? I'd have to think about it more. The problem is that I would have to believe that one becomes one of the Lord's brothers by not receiving the Lord. But John says that those who received Christ become children of God in the new birth -

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"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him.

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But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become the children of God, to those who believe into His name,

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Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:11,13)

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1.) Those who were His own, whatever that means, cannot mean those who were begotten of God. Otherwise there would be no contrast.2.) Those who were His own probably refers to a natural relationship like they were Jewish as the Lord Jesus was Jewish.3.) Though they were "His own" they are juxtaposed against those who received Him. (Some Jews received Him and some Gentiles received Him).4.) All (Jew or Gentile) who received Him (ie. did not REJECT Him) were begotten of God. God dispensed His divine life into them BIRTHING them unto Himself supernaturally.5.) This birth is NOT-a.) a relationship of blood with Jesus - "begotten ... not of blood" b.) a relationship of the will of the flesh - " begotten ... not of the will of the flesh" It is not a regeneration that can be mustered up by the effort of man's fallen nature, man's natural nature.c.) a relationship even of the God created good part of man - "begotten ... nor of the will of man" . Man is fallen today. But there is a part of man that God originally said was very good. The new birth is not something that can be accomplished even by the part of the good man originally created by God or any part of the original man still left within our fallen being.The relationship of being children of God and thus brothers of Christ is by a regeneration miraculously carried out by God because we RECEIVED Christ - "begotten ... of God"6.) At best the sheep portion of Matthew 25:31-46 I think proves that some people will be saved into an everlasting life who were not born again.And I'll stop here on this post and let some of my evangelical brothers think on that for awhile. I don't think this will include anyone with enough exposure to the Gospel to be able to debate, argue, contradict, quote passages, and reason that Jesus is not the way, the truth, and the life.

I have said above that Matthew 25:31-46 I think proves that some human beings will be saved into an everlasting life who were not born again.Briefly I would draw attention to the children of God who are brothers of Christ and the saved sheep here. The difference is in what God promises them enjoyment of.The sheep - " Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (v.34) The children of God - "Even as He [the Father] chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself ..." The sheep are to inherit the kingdom prepared "from the foundation of the world".The sons of God [predestinated to SONSHIP] were chosen to enjoy a salvation prepared "BEFORE the foundation of the world" .What is the difference between from the foundation of the world and before the foundation of the world ?I will elaborate more latter. Briefly BEFORE the foundation of the world relates to God's eternal purpose to have sons with His life and nature - men and women mingled with God, saturated with God, permeated with God as a union in life between God and man. These are in His family as sons.FROM the foundation of the world relates to the good earth prepared for Adam the created man. Adam was not created regenerated. He did not have the life of God. He was placed before the tree of life to take the life of God. But that was a choice for him and he was not created with God's Spirit of divine life in him.From the creation of the world this unregenerated yet innocent man had the earth and its good things prepared for him.The sheep are the nations brought out of the great tribulation whom God will restore to be in the condition of Adam before he ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. That is the innocent man whom God made (very good) who should not have had any reason to die, for whom the good earth was prepared.They are transferred into the millennial kingdom and become the nations that the sons of God will reign over. When Revelation says "And they [His sons] will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 22:5) He should not mean that they reign over each other. There has to be some peoples there during the millennium and afterwards in the new heaven and new earth for the sons of God to reign over as co-kings with Jesus Christ.This is a brief explanation of the difference between the brothers of Christ who are His believers (Matt. 12:49-50) and the nation sheep who remain alive and receive mercy from Christ at the close of this age. They will be transferred into the next age of the millennial kingdom. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bullshit.Once again you are simply denying what Matthew 25 actually says and pulling quotes out of context to do so; you are simply once again perverting the Bible.In case you didn't notice, John is not Matthew.Stop letting nutjobs like Lee tell you what the Bible says and instead read it. Note that all the nations are brought before him. Not some nations. Not just one segment. Not just one group, Not all except a select few. All nations. And he gets a response: Note, they are surprised. They question him. They say "Hey, we never did anything for you."And what about the goats? The goats also question Jesus? Now that is what his followers, his disciples or apostles would say; it is not what someone who was not a follower would say. They've been with Jesus, shared food and shelter with him; they know that they have done things for Jesus.But they also miss the point, a point Jesus is recorded as saying repeatedly, a point he demonstrates repeatedly.The Jews thought they were the chosen people and were angered when Jesus pointed out their misunderstanding using examples from the Torah.This is important and a point that is made repeatedly in the New Testament by Jesus.Those who follow Jesus are NOT his brethren.Look at Matthew 7 where again Jesus points that out.Christians are NOT a chosen people.It is what one does that is important, not what one professes and to become a brethren of Jesus you need to do what he told us to do; feed his people.Not feed them crap like what you and Lee try to market. Not feed them spiritual food. Feed them food, clothe them, shelter them, comfort them, heal them, educate them, teach them to question, to question even GOD.If Jesus had fed the folk at the pachanga by the sea spiritual food there would have been no one there to listen. If Jesus had turned wine into water he would not have ever been invited back. Wine, loaves and fish, tangible acts of kindness, those are what count, not words.Yes, I imagine that the Goats will be almost all Christians and the Sheep will be Jews, atheists, agnostics, Satanists, Buddhists, Muslims, followers of the Norse, Roman, Hindu, Greek gods, the teachings of Confucius and Mencius, animists and maybe, just maybe a very small smattering of Christians.

No they were not. There is nothing in Matthew 25 to suggest that anybody was "called out" from the nations.I know you are fond of using other parts of the Bible to contradict the plain text but that is not valid Bible interpretation. You might as well be using Treasure Island to contradict Kidnapped. The text is plain: the ones who are joined to Christ are the ones who do His bidding. They feed the hungry, etc. Exactly. Those who do His will are His brothers, those who feed the hungry, etc. - not anybody who is "called out", not members of some club that chant, "Lord! Lord!" while stepping on the poor.And it is God and Jesus who decide who their relatives are, not us, so we have to treat everybody well in case they are God's relatives. He is speaking of "whoever does the will of My Father who is in the heavens", not anybody who is "called out". Matthew 25 disagrees with you. That's exactly the point: the sheep can be ignorant of who Jesus "is" and still do his will; the goats can know who Jesus is and still be punished for ministering to Him and ignoring the poor. But the only way we can tell what that distinction is is by what they do for the poor. The goats, the ones who are ministering to Jesus and bleating, "Lord! Lord!" are the ones who will be punished, not rewarded. You seem to classify yourself as one of those saints. It doesn't take a month of Sundays or a ream of sermons. Just answer the simple question: If you are responsible for your own sins, why mention Adam's sin at all?