Importance of Original Sin

Do you expect Him to use different standards at different times? I regard it as being about judgement, period. Matthew 25 is quite plain that those who claim to be His brothers but don't do His will (feed the hungry, etc.) will be punished. It's there in plain English. You can criticize the translation if you like. It doesn't mention the Revelation at all. Matthew 25 agrees with that choice.

Matthew 7 and many other examples also agree with you.

You're miscontruing what it means to "fear God".Taking care of each other is a natural reaction for humans; it comes out of our evolutionary past; we're much stronger as a group than as individuals. All too often it's religion that tries to beat those natural charitable inclinations out of us.But fear of God doesn't mean kowtowing to some external entity. It means more like fear of what God's creation can do to us if we don't stick together. First Corinthians 3 agrees with what I'm saying.

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"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is."

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Yes, the branches that don't produce fruit will be thrown into the fire. (No mention of Christian branches or atheist branches).

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"If anyone's work [Christian] which he has built upon the foundation [Christ v.11] remains, he will receive a reward."

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I see you've written "Christian" into the Bible there. It isn't in mine. Mine says "anyone".

The church is the ekklesia - the called out ones. And Jesus Christ says that all throughout the church age the gates of hell will not be able to prevail against the builded church, (though they will try their utmost). " ... upon this rock I will build My church [called out ones - ekklesia] , and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) The church is raptured in stages before Christ descends to the Holy Land, so those who are the " myriads of His saints" coming with Him (Jude 14) are of the ekklesia. First Thessalonians 3:13 speaks of Christ coming "with all His saints" also indicates that those with Him in His descent are of the church - "saints".Scripture is used to interpret Scripture.
So it is not a matter of my "fondness" but how Scripture sheds light on Scripture. The Lord Jesus tells the sheep to inherit the kingdom prepared by "My Father"

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" Then the King will say to those on his right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:34)

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It says "My Father" and not "our Father" . Though the Bible does not often say "our Father" Jesus did on one occasion say "my Father and your Father" (John 20:17) . The sheep of the nations are not joined to Christ as those with His divine life - brothers to their one Father. God to them is merely their Creator. But those of "these" who were previously raptured to Him before He came down, are the saints and made holy through His Holy Spirit. They are joined to Christ in that sense.Because these sheep have no life relationship with the Son and the Father they are not Christians. But they are blessed.
Every kingdom has to have a people over whom that kingdom governs. These sheep are those people transferred into the millennial kingdom.Because the sheep have to be in a condition to perform the deeds of charity and hospitality they would necessarily exclude "the least of these My brothers". The brothers in prison would have no opportunity to visit the sick and the jailed. So the brothers of Christ are the third group - "these" and not the sheep.But the brothers of Christ are joined to the Lord in spirit (1 Cor. 6:17). So what is done to them is done to the Lord Jesus.Because the rapture of the saints generally means they were taken OFF the earth to in some way be with Jesus, He comes WITH them now.
And this is prophesied in the Old Testament in Joel 3:11:

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"Hurry and come, All you surrounding nations, And be gathered. There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah ! " (Joel 3:11)

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Jehovah incarnate - the Son of Man, descends from above and ALSO causes His mighty ones to descend with Him. Many of them were previously harassed and deemed pitiful, weak, and persecuted. But now some of them who overcame are being rewarded to reign with Christ as His mighty ones. And they come down to earth with Him ( 1 Thess. 3:13; Jude 14). The prophecy of Joel goes quite harmoniously along with the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 14, Revelation 19, and Matthew 25. It continues -

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" Hurry and come, All you surrounding nations, And be gathered. There, cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah! Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
Send forth the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; Come, tread, For the winepress is full; The wine vats overflow, for their evil is great.

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Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near In the valley of decision." (Joel 3:11-14)

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There will be a taking up in rapture of the church.
There will be the judgment of His saints above the earth to decide which shall receive the reward to reign with Him.Then Christ will descend and the final battle of Armageddon will destroy Antichrist and his armies.
Then in the valley of decision in the Holy Land Christ upon the throne of His glory, accompanied by His rewarded "mighty ones" who are by that time glorified, will judge between the sheep and the goats.

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" Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me."(Matt. 25:40)

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Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither have you done it to Me."(v.45)

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Now let's examine some of "the LEAST of these My brothers" and see if they KNEW the Lord or did NOT KNOW the Lord.We see in previous parables about the Christians being judged by Christ. We see those highly commended and those lowly commended. Do those who are of the least know who the Lord Jesus is or not ? Emphatically they know the Lord Jesus their Master -

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"Then he who had received the one talent also came and said, Master, I knew about you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow. And I was afraid and went off an hid your talent in the earth; behold, you have what is yours. And his master answered and said to him, evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow. Therefore you should have deposited my money with the money changers; and when I came, I would have recovered whatr is mine with interest." (See Matthew 25:24-27)

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The main point here should not be missed. This parable is a warning to Christians who are joined to the Lord as one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17). And this lesson is a warning to such a Christian about provoking the Lord's displeasure at His return at the end of the church age. He comes at the conclusion of the church age.
The slothful servant KNEW about his master as the slothful Christian - a regenerated brother of the Lord Jesus, KNOWS his Lord.For this reason the sheep who know nothing about who the Lord Jesus was cannot be Christians.

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" ... Lord when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty and have given You drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You? And when have we seen You sick or in prison and have come to You? " (Matt. 25:37-39)

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What the Christian does in the way of charity and service he or she does for the sake of Christ.
These sheep did not do their works of charity for the sake of Christ because they did not know who Christ was.The same is true with teaching of prudence and faithfulness of the Lord's servants for His second coming in Matthew 24:45-51. Here we read of a brother of the Lord we might call. "the least" in his behavior -

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"But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master delays, And he begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know ..." (See Matthew 24:48-50)

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The teaching is concerning the Lord's servants who are the Christians - "Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time ? Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing." (v.45,46) The Christians says in his heart "My Master delays His coming" as many Christians throughout the ages have exactly done. They have mistreated their fellow Christians and been worldly under the expectation that the second coming of their Lord and Master was being delayed. But they KNEW Who their Master was. The sheep in the prophesy of Matthew 25:31-45 did not know who the Lord Jesus was.The goats are those who were swept up in the hysteria of persecuting the Christians - the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.
The goats will follow the Antichrist and share the miserable destiny of the Antichrist in eternal damnation.
The sheep will heed the eternal gospel of fearing God the Creator preached by the angel in the air supernaturally.More latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Christ says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will inherit the kingdom of the heavens.
But not everyone who does not inherit the kingdom of the heavens goes into eternal punishment.The proof of this is in Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Paul indicates that some Christians, who whose Christian works do not survive Christ's fiery examination, will lose a reward and suffer loss. However they will be saved, yet so as through fire:

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"The work of each [Christian] will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

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If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Christ] remains will receive a reward; If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

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As you can see some Christians will come up short when Christ examines the works of their Christian life.
They will "suffer loss" - that is the loss of reigning with Christ in the millennium.
But they will be saved unto eternal life - "he himself WILL BE SAVED".The Christian whose work survives the fiery examination of Christ will receive a reward. This include reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.So, the truth is maintained that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13).
But not every one who says Lord, Lord and is saved, will inherit the kingdom of the heavens. But those who do the will of their Father will receive the reward of the millennial kingdom.So some who are salivating to see Christ discipline some of His servants, as He well will, should not expect that this discipline means that they go into eternal perdition as the goats in Matthew 25:41,46.Now someone may say "Yea GET 'EM Jesus !! Punish those Christians!" They are glad because Christ causes some of the Christians to lose their reward and suffer loss. And such a one may have confidence that he is among the sheep ? This is exceedingly risky.The sheep do their works not knowing that what they do they did to Christ. All along this discussion ringo has argued in a way that suggests HE KNOWS that good deeds done to the needy are done to Jesus Christ.So if ringo KNOWS that, then how can he be among those described as the righteous who did NOT know? And how can he be eager that the least of the Lord's brothers would suffer loss while boasting that he knows he is doing good to them ? Does he want them to be aided or to suffer loss ?

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"Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord,
when have we seen You hungry and have fed You,
or thirsty and have given You a drink ?
And when have we seen You a stranger, etc. etc."

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Someone like ringo hopes to be able to say "They didn't know that we were well treating you King Jesus. But I knew it all along. I had the understanding the to treat well the poor was to treat Jesus Christ well."This is unlikely to happen for by ringo's clear understanding that he was indirectly doing well to Christ when he was doing well to the poor, he disqualifies himself. How can he be among those who ask "Lord, when ... ?" I should also be noticed that in the judgment of Christians Paul says that the works are on the FOUNDATION which no one else can lay - Jesus Christ.

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"According to the grace of God given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid a foundation, and another builds upon it. But let each man take heed how he builds upon it. For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." ( 1 Cor. 3:10,11)

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Many humanitarian secularists are at work attempting to lay another foundation for the Christian church besides Jesus Christ. To them Jesus is not the Son of God, even God incarnate who died a redemptive death and rose from the dead. To them Jesus Christ is a good example of a upstanding moral man. His death is merely the death of a someone like Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi. They regard Christ's crucifixion only a heart warming example of dedication to doing good deeds.But the New Testament teaches a death and resurrection of Christ which accomplishes eternal redemption.In the book of Acts we do have a man who was charitable. And God remembered his charitable works. But at the same time God sent the apostle Peter TO him that he and his household and his friends with him, might be saved. This man is Cornelius of the Italian cohort. And this man "feared God" though he needed to hear the gospel of Christ:

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"Now there was in Caesarea a certain man named Cornelius, a centurian of what was called the Italian cohort. Devout and one who feared God with all his household, giving alms to the people and beseeching God continually.

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He saw clearly in a vision .. an angel of God coming to him and saying to him, Cornelius. And he looked intently at him and became terrified and said, what is it , Lord ? And he said to him, Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa and send for a certain Simon, who is surnamed Peter;

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This man [Peter] is lodging with a certain Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea." (Acts 10:1-6)

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This was the beginning of the Gospel of Christ being preached to the Gentiles. And it is included to demonstrate that even one giving alms and praying to God was still in need to be redeemed, saved through believing into Christ.Suppose Cornelius had rejected the instructions of the angel. Suppose Cornelius had said " Why do I need to hear this Peter tell me anything ? I give alms to the poor. I out clothes on naked backs. I feed the hungry. I don't need to hear anything from this Peter !"I leave it to you to imagine. But what happened was that Cornelius humbled himself, and the reluctant Peter took with him witnesses, and the gospel they THOUGHT was only for Jews, he preached to the Gentile. And the result was that they too received the Holy Spirit. They were saved and became Christ's disciples.After the rapture of the watching and waiting overcoming Christians on earth, the dispensation will change. And then men will be saved by hearing the "eternal gospel" preached in the air by the angel, warning men to fear God the Creator (Revelation 14:6,7). The sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 are people of nations living on the earth who heed this gospel and do not follow the Antichrist.How can anyone today undermining the one foundation of the church - Jesus Christ, and denying the gospel of justification by faith in Christ, hope to be saved because of doing charity in opposition to the gospel ? That is seeking to undermine the gospel of the grace of God.Some men hate the light, says Jesus. And some men who do truth will come to the light vindicating that they are being led by God, as Cornelius was:

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"For every one who practices evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, that his works be reproved. He who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they are wrought in God." (John 3:20)

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In Revelation 14 the eternal gospel includes the words - " ... Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." The inhabitants of the earth during the great tribulation are told to "fear God". They should fear God because the judgment of God upon the whole earth is about to take place.A fool has not fear of God at the dawn of the judgment of God.Now the Bible says that the fear of God is CLEAN (Psalm 19:9).
And it says that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord (Proverbs 1:7; 9:10) .Ringo says I misconstrue what it means to fear God. OH no I don't.The word for "fear" there in Revelation 14:7 is also used in these passages:

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Hebrews 13: 6 - " I will not fear what man can do to me."

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Matthew 21:46 - "And though they sought to seize Him, they feared the crowds because they held Him as a prophet."

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Luke 9:34 - "And while he said these things, a cloud appeared and overshadowed them; and they became frightened as they entered into the could."

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Luke 19:21 - "For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man; you withdraw what you did not deposit and you reapp what you did not sow."

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Acts 5:26 - " ... for they feared the people, lest they would be stoned."

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Revelation 15:4 - "Who shall not fear You O Lord ..."

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So when someone says "But to fear God does not mean to be afraid of God." I would say "Oh yes it does."Then someone will say " But John said perfect love casts out all fear ". Yes John says that, but I must not be perfected in love yet.But we should not be discouraged because the Lord pities those who fear Him -

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"As compassionate as a father is toward his children, So compassionate is Jehovah toward those who fear Him.

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For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. " (Psalm 103:13,14)

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Because we have this sinning nature we should fear the consequences of being judged by God who is absolutely righteous. But this God also loves us so much. And we fear His infallible judgment on one hand but take comfort in His everlasting love for us as manifested in Jesus Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I noticed it long ago in John 15. I'll speak to that passage too latter. Who is the letter addressed to ? "to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours." (1 Cor. 1:2) The letter is addressed to:1.) the Christian church (not a physical building, mind you, but a community)2.) to those sanctified in Christ Jesus - Christians.3.) those called saints - whoever is made holy in standing through Christ's redemption.4.) those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ - Christians for sure.5.) those callers in everyplace - Christians anywhere reading the same epistleSo "if anyone's work" refers to Christians "anyone".Now concerning the branches in John 15 cast into the fire:Fire is used to speak of trouble or discipline or something else trying or difficult or even punishing elsewhere in the New Testament. We see trials as of fire. We see saved yet so as through fire.Fire need not always be considered "eternal fire".Having said that, for the branches abiding in Christ to be taken away and cast into the fire surely means something undesireable. Only those who consider that God has NOT OTHER WAY to deal with people except hell automatically assume that eternal fire is meant there.Too much of the Gospel of John assures the believer that he will never perish. So the abiding branches which bear no fruit and are taken away to be cast into the fire, though unpleasant, must mean something short of ETERNAL perdition.After all, Paul talked about the Christian whose works merit rebuke to be saved yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Isn't that what dispensationalism is all about? Ignoring all of those red words in the Bible? Repentence, turning the other cheek, loving thy neighbor as thyself? That stuff's for Jews. You aren't Jewish are you?

I'm not a Jew but Jesus certainly was.

That is not the dispensationalism that I believe in. Those passages are every bit for the disciples of Christ.Now the topic here is suppose to be about so-called "Original Sin." And in my understanding this involves the sin nature that was passed on to all men because of the first man Adam's disobedience.This is related to the teachings of the "red letters" so to speak, in Matthew's gospel. No one can make it to live those things without the nature of the Son of God being imparted to them.What Jesus was teaching in Matthew 5 - 8 was simply the way He Himself had been living for thirty years. He was teaching what He lived. He was really describing to His disciples how He Himself had been living all His life.These teachings accomplish two things:1.) They should expose our inability to muster up such obedience with our fallen nature.2.) They drive us to depend upon Jesus Christ to come into us and live again through us.So, when you count people as dismissing these hard passages, saying perhaps "Oh those are for the Jews and we Christians take all the easy verses" don't count me in that attitude.That Matthew 5 through 8 is intended for the typical churching disciple throughout the age of grace is proved by the introduction to chapter five -

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"And when He saw the crowds, He went up to the mountain. And after He sat down, His DISCIPLES came to Him. And opening His mouth, He taught them." (Matt. 5:1,2)

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1.) He saw the large crowds.2.) He went up higher, up to "higher level" and sat, waiting.3.) Those who were His disciples, who intended to follow Him, "came to Him" . They went up higher after Him.4.) After that, Jesus opened His mouth and taught them.I think the evangelist Matthew purposely records this detail to demonstrate that not the crowds, but the disciples who were to be Christians, went up to Him to be taught.The teaching of Matthew 5 - 8 is spiritually and morally very high. It represents the highest level of morality a person can live on the earth.And without the grace of Christ and His indwelling presence no one can make it to live this way.How do I know that Christ intends for man to depend upon His life and nature to be able to live this high standard of morality ? Well, the entire Gospel of John indicates that. For that is the Gospel about Christ as divine life being imparted into the believers.But how do I know because of Matthew's Gospel? Two places:

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Matt. 7:7 - ASK and it shall be given TO YOU; seek and you shall FIND; KNOCK and it shall be OPENED to you.

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For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened."

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What shall be given?
What shall be found?
What shall be opened?God Himself within us as a new nature to live by. In short the indwelling Christ of new testament salvation.Another nature which is in Jesus Christ and shall be imparted into the Christian. That is Christ Himself in His pneumatic form shall come into His followers to be their life and empowerment and grace and ability to be sons of God.Only as Christ living within them can they live this highest standard of morality.
The other verse in Matthew is 5:48.

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"You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

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This passage is not about man with the fallen nature imitating the perfect God. It is about man having been born of the God that God is now our Father in life and nature, may empower us within to be sons of the Father expressing the Father in our humanity.Matthew shows the demand for the highest level of morality on the earth to live in the kingdom of the heavens. And John shows that Christ within is the supply of divine life to meet the divine demand. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The question I explore now is whether or not the prophecy of Matthew 25:31-46 is taught anywhere ELSE in the gospel of Matthew ?I believe the answer is YES. To show where else in Matthew this occurs first we have to see that the whole world is divided into three catagories of people in Matthew:1.) Israel2.) The Christian church3.) The Gentiles, (the nations)To these three categories, Jesus told three parables.Concerning Israel - Matthew 13:44Concerning the church - Matthew 13:45,46.Concerning the nations - Matthew 13:47-50Respectively, these three parables we could name accordingly.
Matthew 13:44 - the treasure of Israel hidden in the God created earth
Matthew 13:45,46 - the church as the fine pearl brought out of the sea.
Matthew 13:47-50 - the living nations judged at the end of the church age.Now I will only briefly expound these parables.

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Israel - "The kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid, and in his joy goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field." (Matthew 13:44)

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God hid His treasure of the nation of Israel in the God created earth. Jesus Christ went to the cross and died to redeem the whole earth. There on the cross He sold all that He had in order to redeem the earth in order to obtain the treasure of the nation of Israel.

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"Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a merchant seeking fine pearls; and finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Matt. 13:45,46)

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The pearl is produced by the secretion of liquid out of a wounded oyster. On the cross Christ was wounded by man's sins. And Christ poured out His life to produce the Christian church. He went to the cross and sold all that he had in order to purchase the new covenant church.Often the land represents Israel and the sea represents the nations. Christ went to the cross and sold all that He had to redeem from the nations the precious pearl of the church.Now the last parable, the parable of the good and bad fishes corresponds to the prophecy of the Lord separating the sheep and the goats.

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"Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net cast into the sea and gathering from every species. Which, when it was filled, they brought onto the shore, and sat down and collected the good into vessels; but the foul they cast out.

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So it will be at the consummation of the age: the angels will go forth and separate the evil from the midst of the righteous, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:47-40)

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This last parable corresponds to the prophecy of Matthew 25:31-46.
The net pulled in from the nations is the collecting of the living Gentiles at the end of the great tribulation of three and one half years.As the good fish are separated from the foul fish the goats and the sheep are separated from each other. As the foul fish represent the lost thrown into a furnace of fire by the angels so the goats going into the eternal fire corresponds.The good fish collected into vessels correspond to the sheep being the inheritors of the kingdom prepared by Christ's Father for them. They are saved.Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable. It does not say "the kingdom is AS" or "the kingdom is LIKE." Rather we should regard it as a prophecy; a prediction of what is to come. And both the parable of Matthew 13:47-50 and the prophecy 25:31-46 refer to the same event.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

And yet you don't address my point at all. You doubted that, "anyone who does not fear God will be inclined to do the things which the sheep are doing in Matthew 25:31-46," and I said that, "fear of God doesn't mean kowtowing to some external entity. It means more like fear of what God's creation can do to us if we don't stick together."

It's funny how you broaden the interpretation of scripture when it suits you and narrow it when it suits you.When Paul spoke to the Corinthians, he wasn't just talking about the Corinthians. If he had wanted to specify Corinthians only he could have said "you". I'm sure that even your self-servingly narrow interpretation means other Christians besides Corinthians, so whom he was addressing is irrelevant. He said "anyone" and I'll take it as written - he meant "anyone". I don't "automatically assume"; I suggest the possibility. You again conveniently warp the scripture so that it means everybody but you.

I gave you the rationale why chapter three is speaking to Christian disciples. Deal with that rather than a vague disgruntled general complaint. I don't see why not. "To the church of God which is in Corinth ... etc. etc." Maybe your understanding is enfluenced by a more modern day assumption about what a church is. That is a gathering of religious people some of which are Christians some of which are agnostics or who knows what else.Paul was not that sloppy as we are today. I didn't say he was only talking to the Corinthians. I pointed out that the salutation includes - "those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ IN EVERY PLACE, who is both THEIRS and OURS." (1:2) If you call on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess Him as YOUR Lord as well as He is OUR Lord (meaning Paul's, his co-workers, and the believers in Corinth) then the letter can be to you also.It is not addressed to any who do NOT call on Jesus as Lord and who would argue that Jesus is NOT their Lord as He is the Lord to Paul, his fellow apostles, and the Corinthian church.Now if an unbeliever wants to read the letter, of course that is fine. Who knows ? He or she may become a Christian as a result. That would be splendid. As one who calls on the name of the Lord so that I can say Jesus is mine as well as theirs, I am subject to the judgment seat of Christ and the loss or gaining of reward.As to the question of eternal life, for me I know that that has been accomplished in the affirmative. No brag, just fact. And ALL the glory for that goes to my Lord and Savior Jesus.

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"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

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I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)

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I know that I have eternal life. I do not yet know that I will receive the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. And I do not yet know if instead I will suffer loss. " But I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him, against that day. "

No I did not address that point. There are a number of points made by posters which I have not addressed specifically.So you criticize "kow-towing" to some external entity and establish in its place "kow-towing" to some group think, like-minded club on behalf of "creation" which is much an external entity still.What have you accomplished ?God is all-around and many faceted as the ultimate Person. Why should not fear of God be one aspect of man's relationship as well as love for God, awe of God, respect for God, adoration for God ?Jesus taught specifically WHOM His disciples should fear (Luke 12:5-7).Of course it would be warped to have only fear of God and no other feeling.
And something could be said for fearing that the church divided would be a defeat to the believers.But I don't know why you would complain that we should have a healthy fear of One to whom we are accountable as the Ultimate Governor of all creation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.