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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I would like to get a PDF of
LaMarche, V.C. Jr., Hirschboek, K.K., Frost Rings in Trees as Records of Major Volcanic Eruptions, Nature 307, 1984 p121-126 I can get the abstract but not the full article, and would rather use this article than a news report on it. message me for email RE Wright, R.D., Mooney, H.A., Substrate-oriented Distribution of Bristlecone Pine in the White Mountains of California, American Midland Naturalist, Vol. 73, No. 2 (Apr., 1965), pp. 257-284 Published by: The University of Notre Dame JSTOR: Access Check My Jstor shelf is full so I would need copy of this ... especially Fig 4 Thanks Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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From "The Creationists", Ronald Numbers, UC Press 2003 (Paperback) pp 2116-219:
quote:
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Here it is:
--Percy
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Atheos canadensis Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 141 Joined:
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Excellent. How did you do that?
And now that everyone can see it, perhaps someone can weigh in on the lines representing the permanent wilting points. I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the moisture content dips below this line. The PWP is defined as the point at or after which a plant can no longer recover even when placed in a moisture-rich setting. Note that the PWP takes into account water retention properties of the plant in question. So how can trees survive there if moisture content dips below the PWP? Obviously they do survive, so presumably I'm just misunderstanding something. I think RAZD should make sure he understands what's going on here before directing Mindie to it. I can see him pointing out that the fact that the moisture dips below the PWP proves that the trees must be experiencing complete stoppage of growth and are therefore producing more than one annual ring. There may be a difference between the wilting point and the point at which growth ceases. But in any case the curve does illustrate RAZD's point that dolimitic substrates lose moisture gradually and thus we shouldn't expect any extra rings to look like true annual rings, rather they should be morphologically identifiable as stress rings as seen in Message 51. Edited by Atheos canadensis, : wrong message linked.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
His scenario requires trees all over the world to synchronously average 11 or 12 extra tree rings per year for millennium after millennium, which fails the very first level of sanity check. It is a desperation born of need. C-14 dating cannot just be wrong. It must be wrong by at least a factor of 11 or 12 in order to produce real dates about 4000 - 5000 years in the past for things which are really 40,000 to 50000 years old. Most of us will never be in a debate in which the fate of our immortal souls hangs in the balance, so perhaps we will never know just how silly a position we are willing to take. It is only in that light that I can avoid finding fault with mindspawn. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ramoss Member (Idle past 641 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
In windows . you press the 'windows' key (between the alt and the ctl), and then press print screen (to the right of the F12 button). then you can 'paste' it.
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Dendrochronology.zip
Contains "A Recently Developed Irish Tree-Ring Chronology" PDF and "Substrate-oriented Distribution of Bristlecone Pine in the White Mountains of California" DOCX and PDF. The OCR in the DOCX is much better than in the PDF. I take no responsibility for the Latin spellings. The latter paper is well worth reading in its entirety.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
can't download it
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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In what browser? Opera doesn't work, but Chrome does and IE10 does (with a small complaint) and Firefox does.
But try here.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
that works
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
We both got it...unpacking now....
Thanks, Jon.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Rational thinking is still noticeably absent in Mindspawn's latest post (Message 75). He's arguing that recently discovered minute changes in decay rates mean that decay rates 10 times greater are possible. But the technical paper makes clear that these changes are on the order of ±.001.
Mindspawn also needs all isotopes to be affected to the same degree, but the paper says, "This indicates that, as an experimental observation, isotopes have different sensitivities to whatever influence is causing the observed effects." (See Additional experimental evidence for a solar influence on nuclear decay rates, which is the technical paper that is the subject of the Purdue article referenced by Mindspawn, New system could predict solar flares, give advance warning). Mindspawn obviously accepts that we can measure the decay rate of isotopes with an accuracy greater than ±.001, otherwise he would have to reject the these findings of decay rate variability, yet he rejects the possibility of measuring the decay rate of other isotopes like 234U with any accuracy. --Percy
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
he rejects the possibility of measuring the decay rate of other isotopes like 234U with any accuracy. I don't think he's done that. He's said that U and Th decay rates were "calibrated" from 14C and therefore calibrating 14C from U-Th dates is circular reasoning. He's said that the decay rates in the paper he quoted were dependent on "old-age assumptions", and called for counting measurements in the lab. IIRC he's made no comment on the many counting measurements that have been produced, in the debate and other threads.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I'm now sorry that I ever started that Great Debate thread.
I should have known it would be useless.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
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Atheos canadensis Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 141 Joined: |
So did Mindspawn just completely ignore the figure showing water retention over a period of weeks in dolomitic substrates? He's still asking for proof that dolomite can retain moisture, proof that has been provided. And he still seems to be maintaining the fantasy that the various dendrochronologies match up as the result of similar weather patterns at widely disparate points around the world.
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