Importance of Original Sin

Does it comfort you to think that something about God "ticks me off"?

I recall speaking to the interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46 being about the brotherhood of men.I cannot find the post now, though I started reading from the beginning up to # 135. I do not think I will read the entire 42 pages to find where I dealt with the opinion that Christ's brothers means all His fellow human beings in that passage.I do recall saying that if someone is inspired by the passage in that way, I see nothing particularly wrong, unless they use such a concept to undermine the central tenets of New Testament salvation.By memory, these are the things I recall writing in reference to all men being Christ's brothers there.(Possibly, I could be mistaken that that was another recently written Discussion Forum post elsewhere on the Internet, on Matthew 25:31-46).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Actually, I was referring more to myself. I have no idea how you and God get along, after all.

Ringo argues that the "brothers" down to the least of them are related to Jesus via creation only. In other words "as you did it to one of these the least of My brothers" refers to any and all humans.The view is possible but not at all likely. And the problem with disagreeing with it is that those holding it will exploit that disagreement to assume some general reluctance to give charity to those in need.Ie. "Oh, if you don't think all men can be in need of charity then you are not following Jesus." John says that Jesus came to His own and His own did not receive Him (John 1:11) . "His own" there certainly means not all mankind but the Jewish people specifically. So in one sense the Jewish people are the "brethren" of Jesus.However, the next passages distinguishes between those of "His own" who did not receive Him and those who "received Him". And the relationship of those who received Him is closer. In fact they are His brothers on account of being divinely begotten by the same Father.

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"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. (v.11)

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But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, (v.12)

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Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (v.13)

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Those men and women who were "begotten ... of God" therefore have a closer relationship as brothers than those ethnic brethren who did not receive Him, ie. did not believe into His name.In this passage the brothers of Christ are those who believe into His name and are begotten of God. The relationship is more profound than that of flesh, blood, or the will of man. The relationship is one in which they share the same divine life from the same divine begetting Father - God, as Jesus the Son.They may be Jewish brethren who received Him.
They may be Gentiles who receive Him.
The key is that they believed into His name and were begotten of God.
The Elder Brother Christ has granted them authority to be God's children.
The divine life He possesses they too possess through regeneration.Are all created men in some sense BROTHERS of Jesus Christ ?
Does incarnation of God as a man automatically make all created men His brothers ?In some sense this could certainly be affirmed. But it is not the "brothers" of Jesus Christ that the New Testament usually speaks of. I cannot think of a passage right now teaching this. I could probably find something speaking of all men as brothers of one another, ie. Acts 17:26 -

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And He [God] made from one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth ..." (Acts 17:26a)

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Some ancient MSS read "one blood". But "one" most assuredly infers the one man Adam. So all descendents of Adam are "brothers" in a so called "brotherhood of man."Jesus is God incarnate as a man. So there is a kinship of Christ with all humans since He also became human.In the book of Hebrews Christ is said not to be ashamed to call His believers brothers not because they are merely created men but are being sanctified in His salvation. He and they are all of One - the sanctifying Father -

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" For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

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Saying, I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You." (Hebrews 2:10,11)

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Those not being sanctified He is not referring to as His brothers.
Those who are not part of the church He is not referring to as brothers.In this passage the brothers He is not ashamed to call as brothers have thir Source in the One Father - not God the Creator but God the salvation dispensing Sanctifier. The passage goes on to call them all children of God given to Christ:

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"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

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Saying, "I will declare Your name to My brothers ..."

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"Your name" there is the name Father.

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"I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You."

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And again, " I will trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given to Me."

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Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil."

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The next chapter begins with a proclamation that the "brothers" previously spoken of in the sanctifying process of salvation are "holy brothers".

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'Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling ..." (Heb 3:1a)

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1.) The brothers are being sanctified.
2.) The brothers are holy.
3.) The brothers have a standing before God being set apart from because of their belonging to Jesus Christ and not merely because of being created humans.
4.) The brothers constitute the church - the called out ones. (not a physical edifice but an "organic" entity of life )And though Hebrews does emphasize that Christ became flesh and blood as these holy brothers were, they are the "sons" He is leading into the expression of the Divine life -

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"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Heb. 2:8)

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In this passage those not participating in Christ's salvation are not His brothers. Those not called out, not being sanctified, not being led into glory, not of the church, not of the One, and not holy either in position or in disposition, are not the brothers of Christ.These others, by implication, He IS ashamed to call His brothers.
The lines should not be blurred.The Elder Brother here is "the Author of their salvation." Suppose they refuse both the Author and the salvation ? The strong implication is that the ones saved He is not ashamed to call brothers.The post does not pretend to say all that could be said about "brothers" down to the least of them, in Matthew 25:31-46.Now one poster made a comment that he leaves the science forum to come to the Bible Study to get a good laugh. Here's how he shows his jolly contempt for the word of God - To him it is comedy to talk about the Scriptures. Frankly, I found nothing amusing about the feeling of being a total orphan in the universe, not knowing why I was here or where I was headed.Without being able to call the Creator also Father and partake of Christ's salvation, the universe can be a cold and lonely orphanage of beings - clueless as to the reason for their existence in it.I'd rather be a holy brother being led by Christ into glory - that is the glorious expression of God and man united in co- incorporation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But that is the central tenet of New Testament salvation: Love thy neighbour; all men are our neighbours (even the Samaritans), all sons of man are brothers of the Son of man; we are our brother's keeper.

Again, some of the goats professed to know Jesus and thought they were doing His will. They were Christians. Therefore, the ones they mistreated were not just Christians; they were the others present.

Now that we agree that agape love is a big big part of salvation in Christ there is no need to debate about that.Having recognized that if we want to be thorough we too should recognized that the New Testament draws a distinction between brothers in the natural sense and brothers in the spiritual sense.Yes, love your neighbor as yours.
Yes, love one another as I have loved you, says Jesus.
Yes, we are our brother's keeper.Shall we now use this truth to undermine that the NT draws a distinction between those in the divine brotherhood and those not [yet] WANTING to be in the divine brotherhood ?I say no we should not use one concept to dismantle the other.
I want the whole scope of truth.
I want to recognize both aspects.Paul speaks of the household of faith - those in the brotherhood and those not wanting to be begotten by the Father into the spiritual brotherhood. Galatians 6:10 draws the distinction:

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" So then, as we have opportunity, let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith."

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Could it be clearer ?
Do good to ALL as you have opportunity.
"But ESPECIALLY" to those of "the household of the faith".ALL People deserve that you should do them good.
People of the household of faith "especially" you should remember.The household of faith is the brotherhood of faith.
All people are not of the brotherhood or else Paul would not have to say "but especially toward those of the household of the faith." Though some people are not of the household of the faith, they still should be recipients of the Christian's good, as the Christian has opportunity.This is simply logical.
There are all human beings and there are a subset of all human beings who compose the household of the faith.The brotherhood spiritual is the members of the household of the faith.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Neither the sheep people or the goat people knew Jesus.Of course being now found before the Son of Man on the throne of His glory with His angles and his overcomers, they have no choice but to recognize Him as the Lord.Both groups say ie. "WHEN ... did we do or not do the things You speak of ? " Now some people are very eager to point out that Jesus will rebuke hypocrisy. I think this is not the best passage to show that.These Gentiles or nations are ignorant concerning the Lord Jesus. He shows them that He was on the earth as His people who were persecuted during the tribulation.When Saul was persecuting the brotherhood of Christians the Lord Jesus said to him "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME ?" .The reality has not changed down through the centuries even to the very close of the church age.But if anyone finds inspiration to be charitable from Matthew 25:31-46, and wants to understand that as Christ desiring kindness towards all people, surely, there are worse things one could be mistaken about.But here we have an atheist wanting to use that interpretation to beat disciples of Jesus over the head and basically argue that only charity is what Jesus came to teach the world.

Hell yes.Jesus made no such distinction and in fact said that such nonsense is just plain stupid. Wanting also has jack shit to do with anything.Jesus pointed out to the Jews that they were NOT some chosen race despite their beliefs. There is no divine brotherhood that gets special consideration.That's why if there is an afterlife and heaven it will be filled with atheists and agnostics and animists and Hindus and Satanists and Buddhists and Jews and Muslems and Taoists and followers of Mencius and Confucius and hell filled with good Christians.

You said it, not me. Jar, I have given you indications of distinctions.
You're just grandstanding and asserting things with no heart or seeming ability to back up what you want to affirm.I am here to study the Bible. And I am tempted to make your case for you, so I can examine it. But that is really not my job.But you're just stubbornly grandstanding with brute assertion.In John's Gospel the brothers of Jesus are His brothers because they own His God and His Father -

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" Jesus said to her, Mary! Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My BROTHERS and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (John 20:17)

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Do you think Jesus would include those as His "brothers" who do not believe in God?Do you think Jesus would include those as His "brothers" who do not believe that He is the Son of God ?Do you think Jesus would include as His "brothers" those who deny that He rose from the dead ?No, these need to HEAR the Gospel and BELIEVE the Gospel.
He tells Mary to go to His brothers because now in resurrection His Father is their Father.Certainly God as Creator is everyone's. But what if you deny a Creator God ? What ground does an atheist have to claim he is a brother to Jesus, in terms of the desire of JESUS? Such a one needs first to hear the Gospel. Before that he needs to believe that God IS .... period.My Father and your Father is due to God begetting His disciples with the divine life.

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"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

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But I'll tell you what. God is so eager to receive a person at anytime. If one prays "Lord Jesus, I want to be Your brother. Lord Jesus receive me to be your brother. Lord Jesus I even thank you that I am your brother" - God may hear that life changing prayer. And that person's faith in a living and available Jesus Christ just me usher him quickly into that living hope of being born again.The Father is eager to beget children through faith at any time if they come through Christ. Yes there is. The "special consideration" is Christ Himself. They saved are IN Christ. Christ has become their realm and their sphere.But this brotherhood ALSO are first to be examined by Christ. Judgment begins with the house of God. Where do you get the concept of heaven being the everlasting home of people ?You're just spouting some perversion of the "going to heaven" concept.Now in Christ's salvation, there will be some surprises.
The fact of there being some surprises has NOTHING to do with the bitter and vehement disdain YOU want to embrace against all followers of Jesus.That's just your kind of contempt.

Of course. Bullshit, My contempt is of folk like you who pervert Jesus message. It is folk like you that not only don't follow Jesus but come here to market your Christian Cult of Ignorance version of Christianity.By the way, the author of John is NOT Jesus and that author was trying to create a whole different Jesus.

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Of course.

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I am not a piece of stone with no feelings.
I am not salivating and eager for others NOT to receive mercy.
I have received mercy.One reason that people like me are so persistent to try to present the Gospel is that we simply cannot live with the thought that God opened our eyes and will not do so for others.The evangelist (and I admit that I am that) thinks constantly - "It cannot be that I received mercy from God but others will not receive mercy. Others HAVE to have the same chance. Others have to be given exposure to the word of God. Others must know. "I may want that mercy upon others will be automatic. I am not a stone with no feelings about my wonderful fortune to have been brought to salvation.Now, having said that, it is not the case, even though I may WANT it to be the case, that universally all people will receive the eternal redemption.You say "Of COURSE they will." This is the attitude of the Universalist.It will not hold up under examination of Christ's words - I mean the so called "red letters."But it also will not hold up under the words of His apostles. That is those whom He sent and taught that to receive them was to receive Himself.So appeal to the "red letters" is very hard to justify - "Of course. It doesn't matter. Deny the existence of God. You'll be saved. Deny that Jesus is Son of God. You'll be saved. Deny that Jesus rose from the dead. Of course, you'll be saved."This is the fool's daydream. This is the Unitarian / Universalist theology.Now love hopes all things and believes all things. And if you want to you can believe "Of Course" Satan, demons, fallen angels, humans rejecting God's existence, humans not believing Jesus ever lived and certainly was not Son of God ... my, they ALL of course, will be everlasting brothers of Christ."You go ahead and believe that if you wish. I think you're foolish to do so.
And I am becoming aware that giving evidence of what the Bible teaches seems to have no effect on you jar.I think you just think what you think what you think. And you don't care WHAT Jesus said or what the Bible teaches.So if you think your brute preference reigns supreme rather than the word of God, you go ahead and believe that. Jar, brute assertion and with much hate, that's all you seem to have.If you cannot spell out where I'm perverting the Gospel, then you just are not up to the task.I don't claim to not make any mistakes. But if you cannot show me where the great Ignorance is in my presentation, I cannot really respect your diatribes. How do I know you are not simply denying that Jesus did and said about all the stuff that you don't like ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Then how do you know what the teaching of Jesus was and that I am ignorant of it ?Do you want me to limit my conveyance of Christ's message to Matthew, Mark, Luke ? Why ?What good do you think that will do for you?
You a fan of Professor Bart Erhman? ("Misquoting Jesus" )Have you seen any of the Bart Erhman debates on YouTube ?

I have pointed out how you continually pervert what the Bible says and is, by treating it as though it were one book and not an anthology of anthologies, by pretending that there is such a thing as "The Bible", by pretending it is not just a work of men, by quote mining, taking one verse from one of the anthologies to misinterpret another piece from a different anthology, by pulling one passage after another out of context. Again, more misrepresentation.Only a really little insecure picayune pimp-daddy like the god you market could get pissed it it was dissed. Why would any real GOD give a damn if someone believes in them or not. GOD, if GOD exists, is not the little whimpering kid suffering from social anxiety that you market.And when you say "You have received mercy" you are of course simply lying to yourself. If it makes you feel good then that's fine. As Paul said, there will be those of weak faith that need such comforts.But I did not say that universally all people will receive the eternal redemption. In fact, I imagine that if most Christians receive the eternal redemption it will only be through GODs mercy.There's no hate on my part. Pity perhaps but nothing rising much above pity and humor. But you never do that, and as I said above, that is the problem. I've read the Bible, ones without all the inserts and editorial comments that Nee sticks in.

I'm not a fan of Bart Erhman but he is at least a recognized scholar.And I have better things to do with life than watch YouTube.