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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Stop squirming. Stop expecting me to embrace your strawman.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jaywill writes: I am enjoying a foretaste of the Paradise age. You see, part of my being has already entered into that age. Woooahh......Says who? You?! Not much point continuing much past this point, that level of delusion is insurmountable, but, I'll try one last time. Even if there's a bit of you already in Paradise (and I can guess which bit) the bits that aren't are still firmly planted here, in this mortal vale of suffering, so you have been punished for the sins of your ancestor, now for the final time, how is that just and fair?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Is it kinda like this, Tangle?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You should get your jerky knees fixed. *** KNEE JERK DISAGREEMENT ! *** Are you under the impression that Jesus just threw in parables at random? In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus began by discussing false prophets and false predictions of the "end times". Then He talked about the foolish virgins who were so excited about the bridegroom coming that they didn't notice he was already there. Then Jesus went on to condemn servants who don't use their resources to the full extent in the present instead of hoarding them for the future. Then He talked about the judgement. All of those topics are in one speech and all of them are closely related. Are you ever going to discuss the issue honestly? Or would you rather just have temper tantrums?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You're a virgin. I am enjoying a foretaste of the Paradise age. Edited by ringo, : Changed smiley to smilier.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You should get your jerky knees fixed. Those were your jerky knees I was referring to.
Are you under the impression that Jesus just threw in parables at random? I was the one who took the initiative to outline the sequence and meaning of at least three crucial parables in chapter 13: 1.) Matt. 13:44 - the treasure hidden in the field 2.) Matt. 13:45-46 - the pearl of a great price 3.) Matt. 13:47-50 - the dragnet cast into the sea And I could expound the other four also.I didn't see you or anyone else discuss there relevancy (as a group) to the topic.
In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus began by discussing false prophets and false predictions of the "end times". False prophets are one of many things He spoke of.
Then He talked about the foolish virgins who were so excited about the bridegroom coming that they didn't notice he was already there. I would like to speak to the parable of the 10 virgins. But I would tie it into the topic of Original Sin [again, a term that I do not usually employ] As for them not realizing the bridegroom had come? I don't know where you get that. They were all asleep and the announcement came.
Then Jesus went on to condemn servants who don't use their resources to the full extent in the present instead of hoarding them for the future. Then He talked about the judgement. Don't know what you intend to demonstrate here. I suppose it has something to do with connecting the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 with these parables. You can always elaborate yourself. I won't second guess where you're headed.
All of those topics are in one speech and all of them are closely related. They are closely related. The only parable in Matthew which corresponds to the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is the parable of the dragnet and the various fishes in Matthew 13:47-50. I spoke briefly to that many many posts back. That parable is the same event as described as prophecy in chapter 25:31-46. The good and the bad fish in 13:47-50 correspond to the sheep and goats in 25:31-46. The good and bad fish = the sheep and goats. The judgment concerning the servants of the Lord are judgments of Christians which take place PRIOR to His descent to deal with the sheep and goats of the nations.
Are you ever going to discuss the issue honestly? Or would you rather just have temper tantrums? Don't flatter yourself.You do not cause me anger. And this is a spiritual warfare. Have you not read - "Our wrestling is not with flesh and blood but against rulers, against authorities, against world - rulers of this darkness, against SPIRITUAL forces of evil in the heavenlies." (Ephesians 6:12-13) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 996 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Diomedes writes:
No. The Father's house there in John 14 is not heaven. I am sorry, but that is a load of rubbish. 'My Father's House' suddenly doesn't mean heaven in your view? Does god keep a summer home in the crab nebula? John 14:2"In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:3"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:4"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." John 14:5"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" John 14:6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Father's house in other versions) So how about this jaywill: what 'house' are they referring to? A house of many mansions? What is being referenced? If it is not heaven, what is it? Jesus said he is 'preparing a place' for his followers and indicated that he WILL BE THERE. So what is Jesus referring to? And if you say a church, any ounce of respect I may have for your views is going to evaporate."Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
I know what you were refering to. I was just pointing out that you're looking into a mirror. After all, you're the one using all caps and exclamation points instead of substance.
Those were your jerky knees I was referring to. jaywill writes:
They weren't prepared for his coming - i.e. they were taken by surprise.
As for them not realizing the bridegroom had come? I don't know where you get that. jaywill writes:
Yes, of course. It's all part of the same line of reasoning used by Jesus: Be prepared because He's here now. Use what you have now. Minister to the hungry, etc. now. I suppose it has something to do with connecting the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 with these parables. Is that too subtle for you? It's about now.
jaywill writes: The only parable in Matthew which corresponds to the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is the parable of the dragnet and the various fishes in Matthew 13:47-50. Matthew 13 has several parables that describe what heaven is like and the fact that there is a selection process. Matthew 25 elaborates on how the selection process works. The parables in Matthew 24 and 25 are more closely related to each other than they are to Matthew 13.
jaywill writes:
Was it your angry cat standing on the caps lock key?
You do not cause me anger.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
John 14:2 "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." "In My Father's house are many abodes" The word used there is the plural of the same Greek work used in verse 23.Verse 2 - "abodes". Verse 23 - "abode". In verse 23 Jesus tells them that He and His Father, as the divine "We" will come to the lover of Christ and make an "abode" with him.
quote: The understanding of Jesus going to heaven to prepare mansions there for two or more millennia, that His followers may move into them, is wrong. You should drop the concept of Jesus preparing mansions in heaven. In chapter 2 "the Father's house" was the temple. According to 2:16,21, "My Father's house" refers to the temple. But Christ showed that ultimately the REAL temple of God, the Father's house, was His own body. For He told them that if they destroyed the temple in three days He would raise it up.
quote: The body of Jesus Christ was the real temple of God where God dwelt in a man upon the earth.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This going to prepare a place for the disciples is not going to heaven. It is going to the cross to die for our sins. By accomplishing an eternal redemption, Jesus prepared for other men to also become the enlarged temple of God - God dwelling in men. This profound reality He did not want them to think was not available to them. And that is why He said - " In My Father's house there are many abodes; if it were not so I would have told you ..." Not only can He be God indwelling a man. But they also may be brought into the same reality of God dwelling in many men to make the many living abodes of the Fathers' house. But it is only as He goes to the cross to die for them and be resurrected that He prepares a place in the Father's house for them. Because of His crucifixion and resurrection He can come to them and make an abode with each of them. This enlarges the Father's house. And this is also the mystical Body of Christ, the church. If He alone was the only man who could be God and man united, He would have told them so from the beginning. But He goes to Calvary to prepare a way for the saved to be abodes in the Father's house.
John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." John 14:5"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" John 14:6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Father's house in other versions) They do know that Jesus always followed the Father into the perfect will of God. At first the body of Christ was only the individual body of Jesus of Nazareth. But through His death and resurrection, the body of Christ has increased to be His corporate Body. By unwaveringly going into the depths of the Father's will, which culminates in Calvary's cross, He prepared a standing in God the Father for all who believe in Him [Jesus the Son of God]. The corporate Body of Christ is the house of God ( 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 3:6). The Body of Christ is God's living habitation (Eph. 2:21-22) and God's temple (1 Cor. 3:16-17)
So how about this jaywill: what 'house' are they referring to? A house of many mansions? What is being referenced? If it is not heaven, what is it? The house of the Father was firstly the individual Son of God. Though His going to prepare a place for His believers, it became the enlarged habitation of God in spirit -
quote: When Jesus says "I am going ... I am coming" He was speaking of His death and resurrection. Through death and resurrection He bring man into God. This living temple of God dwelling in man is the church which He will build and which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matt. 16:18) and is related to the climax of the Bible - "the New Jerusalem" in eternity (See. Rev. 21,22). This is living habitation where God and His redeemed people are united. As I said, in verse 23 He will come to make an abode with this lover, and an abode with that lover, and an abode with all the lovers of Christ. Therefore the result of new testament salvation is that the Father's house will become the living temple of many abodes. God can live in man.
Jesus said he is 'preparing a place' for his followers and indicated that he WILL BE THERE. So what is Jesus referring to? And if you say a church, any ounce of respect I may have for your views is going to evaporate. The intention of Christ in this chapter was to bring man into God for the building of His living dwelling place. Between man and God there were many obstacles, such as man's sin, man's sins, death, the world, the Satanic corrupted society, the flesh, the old man, and Satan. Christ must solve all these problems before He can bring man into God. Therefore, Christ went to the cross to accomplish redemption that He might open the way and make a standing for man, that man may enter into God. Had Jesus been the only man who could have a mutual living in God and God in Him, He would have told us from the beginning. Wonderfully, on this side of His death and resurrection all who believe in Christ may enter into God and have God enter into them. Anyone who does not have a standing, a place, in God does not have a place in the Body of Christ. Anyone not in the Body of Christ through redemption and regeneration is not in the Father's house - the dwelling place of God in spirit. So man has to believe in the Son of God and receive Him as Lord and Savior to become a member of Christ's Body and an abode in the house of the Father. The destination is a living Person - the Father. So the way to the destination is also a living Person - the Son.
quote: The footnotes of the Recovery Version New Testament are very helpful in grasping these truths. The Holy Bible Recovery Version Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
The footnotes of the Recovery Version New Testament are very helpful in grasping these truths. That explains a lot.
quote:Recovery Version quote:Which a lot of Christians consider a cult. Recovery Version Your views are very far from mainstream chrisitanity. I suppose it is time for a No True Scotsman.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
jaywill writes: The footnotes of the Recovery Version New Testament are very helpful in grasping these truths. Theodoric writes: Your views are very far from mainstream chrisitanity. No apologies. (Specifics accusations and specific replies to them may be researched - )
Contending For the Faith Page not found – Contending for the Faith Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
ringo writes:
I know what you were refering to. I was just pointing out that you're looking into a mirror. After all, you're the one using all caps and exclamation points instead of substance. The use of caps is for emphasis. Sometimes I use bold. Sometimes I used different colors. Sometimes use of caps may be related to the repetition of a point which someone seems to repeatedly FAIL TO UNDERSTAND. Mostly it is just for clarification and emphasis.
jaywill writes: They weren't prepared for his coming - i.e. they were taken by surprise. That's right. It is a warning to all Christians.Nothing new there.
jaywill writes: I suppose it has something to do with connecting the judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 with these parables. Yes, of course. It's all part of the same line of reasoning used by Jesus: Be prepared because He's here now. Use what you have now. Minister to the hungry, etc. now. Is that too subtle for you? It's about now. Matthew 25:31-46 could be taken that way. But I doubt any atheist has a serious consideration of warnings about Christ's coming. What the prophecy does do is furnish an explanation for who and what are the things that Christ will appoint the faithful servants to rule over. In the previous parable of25:14-30 He tells the two servants that they will enter into the joy He Himself has and assigns them some authority.
quote: This is spoken the faithful servant who with two talents and the faithful servant with five talents. Both secured a profit for their master (who signifies Christ in His second coming). What it is that the rewarded servants are assigned authority over are the nations of "sheep" people transferred from the last days of the previous age into the age of the millennial kingdom.
quote: The reward for the prudent and faithful servants of Christ - the Christians, is to enter His own joy and co-reign with Him over the nations of that time. This is further confirmed by the sister passage in Luke 19:11-27 where Jesus comes back and rewards His servants for how they have done business with the minas given them.
quote: The reward of reigning with Christ over ten cities or over five cities in Luke is equivalent here to the faithful servants being assigned to rule over many things in Matthew. Jesus told the disciples in Luke 12 -
quote: Part of the possessions that Jesus Christ will own are the "sheep" peopled nations transferred from the great tribulation at the close of this age, into the millennial kingdom. They will be dwelling in cities here and there across the globe and some of Christ's servants will reign over them. They, being the meek and faithful, will inherit the earth and the people brought into it from the previous age (Matt. 5:5) The servants of Christ may be considered the prophets. The people over whom the servants of Christ reign should be considered the ones who receive a prophet's reward because of being kind to the prophets.
quote: The ones shown kindness to the prophet, the righteous man, and the disciple must correspond to the sheep who were considerate to "one of these, the least of My brothers" in Matthew 25:31-46. So we see a distinction between the rewarded prophet, little one, righteous man, and disciple, on one hand, and the Gentiles considerate of the persecuted brothers of Christ on the other. The righteous, are persecuted for righteousness sake, Christ tells His disciples.
quote: At the close of this age there will be Gentile nations living through the great tribulation. Some will follow the Antichrist. And some will take note of the persecuted refugees, prisoners, sick, destitute, righteous and prophets and little ones and disciples of Christ. Though these nations may not be at all clear concerning the message that was once taught by these harassed people their God created conscience will not permit them to join Antichrist and his goat nations to deprive these harassed little ones. And even a cup of cold water given to "one of these little ones" will be rewarded by the Son of Man from the throne of His glory when He separates the living nations for judgment. The word translated nations in verse 32 - "all the nations" is the same word translated "the Gentiles" in the 1901 ASV in Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18; and 20:19,25. At the close of the age Christ deals in judgment with the nations' people then living on the earth (Joel 3:12; Micah 4:11-13; Zephaniah 3:8; Zechariah 12:3; and Revelation 16:14 and 19:19,21 ). The little ones of Christ who are rewarded will reign over cities and over their Master's possessions. And those reigned over are from people transferred from the previous age into that kingdom. The reigning is conditional and is a reward rather than an automatic matter simply for being a believer:
quote: Many other passages confirm the reward nature of being assigned to reign with Christ in the coming age.
jaywill writes: The only parable in Matthew which corresponds to the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is the parable of the dragnet and the various fishes in Matthew 13:47-50. Matthew 13 has several parables that describe what heaven is like and the fact that there is a selection process. Matthew 25 elaborates on how the selection process works. The parables in Matthew 24 and 25 are more closely related to each other than they are to Matthew 13. The parable of the dragnet cannot describe what heaven is like because God would have to take the "bad fish" to heaven with the "good fish" in order to do the separating work. The selection process is on the earth and not in heaven. The dragnet is dragged up onto the land. The sea often represents Gentile nations and the land often represents the land of Israel. This would correspond to the judgment occurring at the throne of Christ's glory in the Holy Land after He descends to the earth. So far from explaining what heaven is like, Matthew 25:31-46 is explaining what the earth will be like at the commencement of the millennial kingdom. This misunderstanding is typical for people who might think Matthew's phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" means heaven itself. But it should be understood as the kingdom which has its SOURCE in the heavens. And its reign on the earth is from a SOURCE not of this world, but of heaven from whence Jesus Christ came.
Was it your angry cat standing on the caps lock key? Capital letters are used for my strong desire to help people understand.I may go back to orange colored letters. This post began with ringo explaining that Matthew 25:31-46 is a continuation of the concept of being prepared for the unexpected return of Jesus Christ. While I would not say that that is wrong, I would say still that the surprised recipients of that judgment are the nations living at that time just before Christ descends. The brothers of Jesus Christ at that time will be the harassed and destitute of the prevailing secular society of those days. My opinion is that we are approaching those times. "Christian culture" now is (rightly or wrongly) a strong political force in the world. In the closing days before the second coming of Christ, Christiandom will be reduced to a harassed fourth class (if that) subculture hated by the nations and considered a nuisance to be ridden from society. Those duped by the enemies of Christ's brothers to follow those policies will be punished as "goats" when Christ returns. Those heeding the better motions of their God created human conscience will be mercifully transferred as "sheep" into the next age of the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Those duped by the enemies of Christ's brothers to follow those policies will be punished as "goats" when Christ returns. Those heeding the better motions of their God created human conscience will be mercifully transferred as "sheep" into the next age of the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth.
Too bad that is not what Matthew 25 says. Once again you are at best just flat wrong. Edited by jar, : fix subtitleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
There is nothing in Matthew 24 or 25 about the faithful servants "ruling over" anything in the future. It's about how they are rewarded for what they have already done. It's not a prophecy; it's about ongoing principles.
What the prophecy does do is furnish an explanation for who and what are the things that Christ will appoint the faithful servants to rule over. jaywill writes:
And some of the enemies of Christ's brothers are Christians. Those duped by the enemies of Christ's brothers to follow those policies will be punished as "goats" when Christ returns. Edited by ringo, : Clarification.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
ringo writes: There is nothing in Matthew 24 or 25 about the faithful servants "ruling over" anything in the future. It's about how they are rewarded for what they have already done. It's not a prophecy; it's about ongoing principles. References proving that the faithful servants of Christ co-reign with Christ were provided. Namely, Matthew 25:23 quote: And the "sister" passage of largly the same parabolic teaching in "Luke 19:17,19. quote: Frankly, if ringo cannot see that these teachings are about the faithful Christians reigning with Christ at His second coming, it is simply shortsightedness on his part. It is just, sorry to say, pure ignorance of the Scriptures. The two parables of Matthew 25 are both on faithfulness. One is from the aspect of love -
Matthew 25:1-13 - the ten virgins. The other is from the aspect of service.
Matthew 25:14-30 the talents. Many other confirming passages speak of disciples being rewarded to co-reign with Christ as a reward.
Matthew 25:31-46 is a prophecy.And stating such is just repetition from me. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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