Importance of Original Sin

Matthew 25:23 isn't a reference to "co-reigning with Christ". It's an employer telling an employee that he's been promoted: "Starting Monday, you're the head of the department." It's reading what the Bible says as opposed to writing in what you want it to say.Edited by ringo, : Spellng.

The parable starts with his words -

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For the kingdom of the heavens is just like a man about to go abroad, who called his own slaves and delivered to them his possessions.

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To one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability. And he went abroad. (vs.14,15)

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The next few verses speak of how each recipient of the masters money went off, and what they did with what was entrusted to them. This most logically corresponds to Jesus Christ [the master] entrusting to His disciples certain riches for their service to Him while He goes physically to heaven to return someday.Then we have the section dealing with His physical return from heaven -

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Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. (v.19)

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The "long time" is the entire span of the church age. It does not take rocket science to understand that Jesus Christ is warning all of His followers that He will one day, after "a long time" come again physically to examine what kind of spiritual profit for His kingdom was secured by His servants.While one [or some atheist] might prefer the parable simply to be about the prudent dealing of employees on perhaps a long working day, the far more logical interpretation is about the second coming of Christ.The phrase "Enter into the joy of your master" pertains to the joy of Christ finally, after the long church age of gospel preaching, establishing the millennial reign over the earth in His second coming.

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"His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master." (v. 23)

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The joy of the master signifies the enjoyment of the Lord Jesus in the coming kingdom. Today, Jesus hears His name insulted, blasphemed, used for a two part curse word, mocked, compared with the tooth fairy or spaghetti monster in jolly jest. Jesus Christ sees His name misrepresented, ridiculed, held in contempt, and hijacked for dubious and sometimes outright wicked purposes.But when Jesus comes again these activities will be terminated. And Jesus Christ will judge His enemies and establish His kingdom on this planet. He will also call before Him His own disciples and settle matters with them for their lives AFTER they became His believers.Christ will enter into the inward joy of vindication and of seeing His Father's will done on this earth without longer opposition. Some of His followers down through the long time of the church age will be rewarded in varying degrees. Those deemed appropriate will enter also into His joy, as they too have suffered for His sake.There is much that could be written about this parable. Only this much is shared here to establish a point. This joy at the end of the period of employment is better interpreted as that joy at the end of a season rather than a weekend or daily joy of some kind.This is the joy following a life long career of employment.
If one wanted to draw an analogy to a typical employment situation, the joy would more accurately correspond to the joy of long awaited retirement rather than the joy of the approaching weekend.Also on the negative side, the discipline administered to the unfaithful employee who did not thing with his one talent is to be cast into "outer darkness." The very expression suggests that with the pleased master there is a realm of light. But away from his presence there is an outer darkness.Some Bible readers have understood this outer darkness to mean eternal punishment. It is a punishment. But I think it is a temporary punishment of being away, outside, apart from the master's sphere of light. This should correspond to Christ's presence on earth.I do not know where "outer darkness" is suppose to be. It is clear that it is not pleasant. And that is all we really need to know.

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"And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (v.30)

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We are told elsewhere that as there are degrees of honor in the Lord's kingdom there are also degrees of discipline. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This was not particularly kind way for me to diagnose ringo's problem. But it fits. You see his method of Bible interpretation is often to decide what he wants to believe beforehand. And then he will isolate a passage from all other corresponding or related teachings elsewhere in the same book or in other books. This way he can force the limited meaning he prefers."It doesn't say anything about THAT" is an oft repeated rationale. He thinks by insuring that no other words on the same subject matter are brought to shed more light on a passage, he can restrict the meaning.However, his case is difficult to uphold even when this tactic of "divide and conquer" with isolation is applied to a number of passages.Now the being faithful over a few things and being rewarded by being given responsibility over many things means the Lord Jesus will increase the gift of some.The increase of the gift will be needed because the realm of government will be expanded. And the unfaithfulness in service may lead to the gift not being increased but actually taken away.I would only add one thing for the Christian brothers and sisters to contemplate. Please notice that the one with ten talents was profitable. And the one with five talents was also profitable.The problem was with the one who received one talent. I agree with the interpretation that this indicates that the danger of being unfaithful lies in a Christian comparing himself to others. Because he deems that he does not have what OTHERS have, he will not serve the Lord Jesus and be profitable.The one talented servants probably indicates that if we compare ourselves with others, assuming that someone ELSE is more equipped to serve Jesus, we may waste what the Lord has gifted us with.It is my opinion that the warning of the parable is to not consider that some other Christian can serve the Master because they are more gifted by the Master. Ie. "Since I only have this one talent and that person over there is SO qualified and SO gifted, I will not do anything for the Lord Jesus."Much more could be said about this aspect of the teaching. This much is sufficient. The teaching is a warning to many made passive because of the clergy / laity situation in Christianity.Ie. "The Pastor can pray. But I can't pray.
The Pastor can teach or preach the gospel. But I am not qualified.
The Missionary can help someone. But I am not qualified to do anything. I am not as gifted as some other person. So they should serve the Lord Jesus."Every believer has the riches of Christ as His talents. And every believer should rise up to serve the Master according to His way and His leading and His power.If every Christian who considered himself or herself to be only a "one talent" receiver, would rise to serve the Lord Jesus, the world would be taken for the Lord Jesus.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So now you're unapologetically preaching to your imaginary audience and expecting no-one to notice that you're not answering the questions asked of you.Do you really think we're that stupid?

I term people's reference to "sermons" or "preaching" to basically mean listening to anything they don't want to listen to.I have private messages of appreciation which lead me to assume not everyone in the Forum always share's your dislike for my writing style. And I do take in consideration what some people are able to receive.As for answered questions? The last two were answers in response to Diomedes skepticism about my saying My Father's house was not heaven. He got an answer.Then I addressed ringo's ongoing skepticism about the nature of Matthew 25:31-46.If I recall right, your question had to do with why God holds me responsible for Adam's transgression. I answered that too. I gathered that you disagreed. I do see that the nature of sin and the fact of death are inherited by all descendents of Adam. But starting from Cain and onward I do not see God holding someone other than Adam responsible for the specific act of disobedience.Yes, because of Adam we all die. And in Christ we all will be made alive, at least in the resurrection for future judgment.I suspect that the last sentence you will regard as "preaching". Okay. For me to say "And in Christ we all will be made alive, at least in the resurrection for future judgment" is "preaching." No apologies for that sounding like "preaching."At least you are not stuck in a pew and passively obliged to remain quiet. You can ask questions as you have. You can preach your own message. You can heckle, try to debunck as you have. You can point out this or that problem. And you can steer the discussion in a whole new direction if you wish.I don't worry about how smart or stupid you are.Now concerning what I recall was your question, we are at a point of disagreement. My answer that I am not held responsible for Adam's specific trangression or for having a sin nature, I gather you regard as incorrect.I am usually willing to look into my explanation further.When I asked you for evidence that someone after Adam was blamed for what Adam had done, I felt evaded by you. I don't recall you responding to that except with some general disgruntled quip. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I know a young man who is presently in jail. He stole some belongings in the house of his mother where he is living. His purpose was to sell the items to support his drug problem.If you knew the unfortunate backround of his being raised you could see he is suffering some consequences for the wrong doings of his ancestors.His grandfather liked a lavished life style supported with drug money. And his family backround is one in which expensive things were coveted even though they were beyond their means to obtain.He doesn't know who his real father is. And the man who took him under his care suddenly dismissed him with a ten dollar bill and told him to go find his father.He suffers because of these things done by his ancestors. But his sitting in jail today is not punishment for the things which his fore-bearers did. He is being punished for choices he made to do.Someone wrote that modern man has progressed beyond the point of holding someone to blame for the crimes of their parents. But this young man was not detained because of what his ancestors did but for what he did.I think a wise judge will consider backround circumstances. But we all have something unfortunate in our past along with some things working positively for us too. What we do with this varied backround leads to the decisions we are held responsible for.When the police were called that the young man had stolen numerous objects from the house, they did not say "We have progressed beyond the point of punishing people for the errors of their parents. Therefore we are not going to do anything to discipline you. That would be old fashion and barbaric."The first ancestors of Adam we read about are Cain and Abel. They both "suffered" the results of Adam's fall. They each made their own decisions about their relationship with God and with one another. And they were dealt with by God according to those decisions.If you want to be upset about misplaced punishment, you might consider the unfair murder of Abel by his brother Cain in a fit of religious jealousy.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ok, it's clear that you don't have an answer my question. Do let me know if you ever formulate one.

In this case, my reference to preaching was your use of Ringo's name and 'his' instead of 'you', under the guise of a reply to him, as in: So you're speaking to your imaginary audience not Ringo aren't you?

I am not being punished for the sins of my ancestor.
I've said that in a number of ways now.So I guess your question's premise I don't accept.

You've said it several times but it's blindingly obvious that you are being punished - if it wasn't for the sin of Adam, you'd be in paradise. It really couldn't be clearer.It's no argument to say that a bit of you already is there or that you believe you're saved so you're going anyway, the plain and simple fact is that you are NOT there and you could have been if it wasn't for Adam's sin.

Nonsense. It's less than a human lifetime. The boss goes away and then he comes back. There's nothing "logical" about your interpretation. It's pure fiction. Matthew 24 and 25 are about using one's resources productively. When Jesus "returns" it will be like a thief in the night - i.e. you won't notice until He's gone again. If you're anticipating His "coming", you'll miss it like a foolish virgin.

The quotation claiming "jaywill writes:"doesn't look like anything I wrote. You must have made some mistake there. Blindingly obvious, you say.There was a fall from of mankind from the transgression of Adam. Okay.
Because of Adam's fall we are constituted sinners and we die.You regard this as punishment personally to me for the fall of Adam.
I don't see it that way. I think your complaint amounts to saying that my existence is an act of punishment. "I am therefore I am being punished."I agree that I personally experience some misfortune because of the fall of man. But I also inherit some blessing too.Anyway, when I go very close to the event of Adam's trangression, to the next generation, Cain and Abel, I don't see God blaming them for Adam's act of rebellion. Though it is true that they suffer consequences because of it.Do you regard all consequences as punishment ?
Maybe that amounts to "To exist is to be punished by God."Besides I want to be with Jesus the Son of God. If Jesus is not in paradise I don't want to be there. Paradise for me is Christ Himself.When I say that part of my being is in Paradise I mean that part of my being is joined to Christ. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17) Even if I was being punished for Adam's transgression, being "joined to the Lord" more than over compensates for that.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Of course it is, you can't imagine anything better than being with Jesus in Paradise and the only reason your not with him now in Paradise is because Adam sinned. Couldn't be plainer

It is not nonsense at all. It is quite logical.
Jesus uses a parable to teach His believers about their time of reckoning with Him for a lifetime of Christian service.If it is not obvious to the reader, he only need to consider the context of the parables.The teaching of the faithful servants with the Lord's talents is preceded with a warning about the coming of the bridegroom. The bridegroom represents Christ. (Matt.25:1-13) And these two verses prove He is speaking of His second coming:

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"For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.

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Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions." (24:44-47)

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The coming of Christ with its accompanying rewards and punishments to His followers is the background for the parable of the ten virgins (25:1-13) and the parable of faithful servants (25:14-30) . That's a misunderstanding of the whole book of Matthew.
But it is a purposeful misunderstanding.
It is a deliberate misunderstanding to present "another Jesus" from what is portrayed in the Gospels.The disciples ask Jesus about the end of the age and His coming at the beginning of chapter 24:

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"When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age? " (24:3)

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The reply of the Lord Jesus spans from the next verse 4 all the way through to chapter 25:46. That is things pertaining to His coming and "the consummation of the age." After His long discourse about things concerning His coming and the consummation of the age, there is His night to have the Last Supper before His crucifixion. At that time He speaks of the day He will again eat and drink with His disciples in His kingdom:

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" For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

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But I say to you, I shall by no means drink of this product of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father." (26:28,29)

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This passage is important because it proves that Christ saw His death as a necessary redemptive act to accomplish the forgiveness of sins. No matter how many of His instructions men may seek to keep from the previous chapters, all need the poured out blood of His death for the forgiveness of sins.This is an integral part of the "covenant", the new covenant established by Him.Secondly, the passages proves that Christ believed in His resurrection after His dying. Otherwise He could not point to a day that He will again enjoy eating and drinking with His followers in a future kingdom.

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"I shall by no means drink of the product of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father."

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The time span is not specified. The length of "from now on" is unknown. But "from now on UNTIL" will terminate in Him being physically present again in His Father's kingdom.It is important that there is distinction between His spiritual presence and His physical presence. The book of Matthew says Jesus is Immanual - meaning 'God with us." And Matthew closes the book with Jesus saying that He is with the disciples until the consummation of the age.

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" Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

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And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:19-20)

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As the Holy Spirit He is with the disciples all the days until the consummation of the age.At the consummation of the age His spiritual presence will again be accompanied with His physical presence. So He is with the disciples all the days and He is also coming at the consummation of the age.He is with His believers on one hand spiritually as the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yet He is absent physically and coming as the Son of Man to complete this age and initiate a new one - the physical manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens, the kingdom of His Father.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Why would I want to be in Paradise not transformed, not sanctified, and still with many problems in the self ?Do you imagine that some nice trees and streams and flowers will do anything to heal me of my problems in the soul ? If I go to paradise now I will simply take my problems with me there. Being in paradise will not make any difference to the character flaws that plague me.So I enter into God's salvation through transformation. And He has entered into my innermost being to carry out that transformation process.It is more the case that paradise is something the believer is becoming than a place to which he is going.You think to much about "going back" to Eden. The salvation of Christ restores more than what was lost and raises the saved higher than what was lost in Eden.It is to be conformed to the image of Christ and built up together in divine love and divine life.Here the apostle Paul speaks of full salvation not in terms of going back to a happy garden but if being conformed "metabolically" to the image of Jesus Christ by His transforming life -

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"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

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Now as a byproduct of being transformed and conformed in maturity to the image of the Firstborn Son, the creation too will follow in being liberated from the decay and degradation of the fall.

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"For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

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For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

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In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

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And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:19-23)

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God is working in His sons, from the inside out, to conform them to Christ. The creation will be released upon the maturity of the sons of God. The final redemption of their bodies is the culmination of this salvation working from the inside out.