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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: are "stand your ground" laws license to kill? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One of the jurors in the trial on the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman said she thinks Zimmerman got away with murder.
Now we have another case ... Michael Dunn Jury Goes Second Day of Deliberations Without Verdict - ABC News
quote: It's like he claims after the fact that it was self defense and made up a lot of his own testimony -- testimony that is contradicted by his fiance, the other boys in the car, and his behavior after the shooting. Will the "stand your ground" law allow him to get away with murder?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks to ALEC these laws have spread like a fungus to several states now, and they are a move in the wrong direction.
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
'Stand Your Ground' Linked To Increase In Homicides : NPR
quote: Another study I saw showed a 3x increase in gun deaths since passing these absurd laws. It goes from ridiculous to absurd: both Zimmerman and Dunn instigated the confrontations before claiming they had to defend themselves, but now ...
South Carolina quote: Really??? At least their supreme court is stepping in ... sort of ...
quote: But there is hope ...
New Hampshire quote: If nothing else these laws should not apply to people that instigate confrontations. Really.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I would expect that criminals who are assaulting people would be shot to death more in states that allow their law-abiding citizens to protect themselves. And I would expect more criminals to carry guns and use them without waiting to see if their victim has a gun. Is that a good thing? When you escalate an arms race you increase the use of arms for lethal purposes. Is that a good thing? Really?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And there do seem to be people who spend their whole lives waiting for that one glorious day when they'll be legally justified in shooting someone Indeed, and they'll be happy to tell you how ready they are, how prepared, how well trained ... ... and without a clue that there are options. It's all (ahem) black and white in their world. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The problem with the stand your ground laws is that justifies the use of offensive tactics, not defensive. No they don't. All they do is remove the duty to retreat. In both Zimmerman and Dunn cases they instigated the confrontation, they attacked and they were on the offensive, then claimed that it was defense. Without stand your ground they would not have passed muster for self defense -- as Dunn did not for the other three teens, and that is why the law is bad. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD, there is no evidence that Zimmerman attacked, ... Curiously I didn't say he attacked, I said he instigated the confrontation, which he did by stalking Trevon. After he was told to stand down by the police.
... but there was ample evidence that he was attacked. ... No, there is evidence that there was a fight, but you only have Zimmerman's (biased) word as to who started it, and how much does stalking count ...
Note that the Zimmerman case did not invoke the stand your ground defense. What planet are you from? That's how he got off, and why one of the jurors said he "got away with murder."
Dunn has no defense. The issue here is that the prosecution got greedy and didn't put a lesser charge of murder for the jury to consider. They just couldn't agree that it was premeditated. Agreed, and the other thing they didn't pursue was whether or not it was a hate crime -- and all the evidence that points to hate crime was then not admitted, when that shows the state of mind of Dunn. With hate crime evidence they could have gotten murder 1. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If Trevon had a gun and shot Zimmerman as he was being stalked, Trevon could have used the stand your ground laws as a justification for the killing. I find that quite ironic. You would think it would work that way, but the evidence of instances of blacks defending themselves in Florida is that the "stand your ground" argument was not allowed and they were convicted ... With the same prosecutor ... is she showing bias in her results? by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ok ... "they attacked"
And I stand by my claim that Zimmerman didn't invoke the stand your ground defence. Google it and see. This was a local story, taking place not more than five miles from where I'm sitting now. Believe me we were all inundated with constant coverage, local and national. Was or was not "stand your ground" included in the instructions to the jury ? Zimmerman verdict renews focus on 'stand your ground' laws
quote: Do you disagree that it was central to his acquittal? Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... Zimmerman had his back on the ground with Trayvon banging his head on the sidewalk so a case could be made for self defense straight out. ... Sorry, the only evidence for that is Zimmerman, and from what I have seen it is rather questionable at best:
DNA Report does NOT support Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon Martin caused his injuriesDid Trayvon Martin attack George Zimmerman first? George Zimmerman: Left hand, right holster So I don't buy it. Curiously I think you should have more evidence than just your word if you kill someone.
... his was a white on black issue when Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic. White mother Hispanic father, with known bias against blacks. You don't have to be white to be a bigot. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn. However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense. At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held. Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So why is it shown backwards (mirrored) and blue? weird.
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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