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Author Topic:   are "stand your ground" laws license to kill?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 33 of 40 (720224)
02-21-2014 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kjsimons
02-20-2014 9:54 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
No, I don't think it was but it doesn't matter. As I said, the defense did not invoke the stand your ground defense, which is all I claimed and that much is factual.
It does indeed matter. Because it means that even if your comment was literally correct, you have not addressed the issue being raised. Unless you address that then the fact that the defense was not invoked is just an NRA sound bite.
When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn.
However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense.
In Dunn's case, no evidence that the teens had weapons was presented. There is no way that Dunn could have prevailed at a stand your ground hearing. On the other hand, Dunn says he thought he saw a shotgun barrel, and that turns out to be enough for three of the twelve jurors, particularly given the jury instructions based on 'stand your ground'.
Well just how skimpy a story will always be enough when scary black kids are involved?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kjsimons, posted 02-20-2014 9:54 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 36 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 40 (720347)
02-21-2014 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:25 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid Attacks
At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held.
Since stand your ground is part of self defense, I don't see how you do that without repealing the law.
Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it?
What would be the basis in federal or constitutional law? Would your complaint be too much deference to criminal defendants? After all, a trial is about the defendants guilt and not payback revenge. I don't see a slam dunk federal issue and the Supreme Court does not decide pure state law issues.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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