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Author Topic:   How did Evolution produce Symmetry?
NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 45 of 73 (69811)
11-29-2003 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by defenderofthefaith
11-29-2003 1:18 AM


As we knew less and less about the background we would have a harder and harder time infering intelligent design. However, the statues are still of a kind that we recognize as the kind of thing humans produce and would infer things from that.
This does become a real problem. As we probe back into paleoanthropology the tools that our ancestors made become more and more simple and less like those we recognize as like known intelligently designed and made tools. At some point it starts to become controversial whether they are products of design or nature and takes significant care to try to distinguish them. When we can't attach them to known designers we start to be unable to distinguish them from "undesigned" objects.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 47 of 73 (69818)
11-29-2003 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by defenderofthefaith
11-29-2003 1:42 AM


Probably, what does that have to do with anything?
How would you decide it is intelligently designed, if you would?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 53 of 73 (72899)
12-14-2003 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Human Being
12-14-2003 11:11 PM


Symmetry Savings
You know, HB, that is an interesting idea.
However, I would start off doubting it is actually what is going on for a couple of reasons:
The human genome (unlike a bacteria's) seems loaded with more than it "really" needs. If this is true then the savings due to symmetry might be overwhelmed by that.
I suspect that the values in symmetry as a survival feature are more important than any savings in DNA management that there might be. My guess would be that if having an asymmetric form was advantageous it would be used and the extra DNA would be carried.
However, I sure don't have anyway of proving any of that. My guess is that we don't know enough to figure all that out.
If someone wants to waste their time "debunking" Dan Winter, by all means waste your time. I know that other people in this discussion will greatly appreciate the angle that I am introducing.
I'll make another quick guess here. It would, as you say, be a waste of time. I won't bother. It does however belong in another thread as it isn't on topic here.

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 Message 52 by Human Being, posted 12-14-2003 11:11 PM Human Being has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 55 of 73 (72904)
12-15-2003 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Human Being
12-15-2003 12:15 AM


Re: Symmetry Savings
I am speaking as a layman here, but I suspect that there are "meta-genes" within our DNA which describe aspects of human life that we have no awareness of. Our knowledge of our own form of life, while seemingly vast, is more likely quite sparse. I do concede I am making an assumption that "symmetry savings" have great relevance towards survival. I am much more comfortable with this assumption than other assumptions I'm reading about in this thread.
We certainly do not know all that much yet, our knowledge is indeed sparse. However, you are proposing things wich we have "no awareness of". Until we have some awareness of them they are wild specultion with no reason for it and nothing further to say about it.
Making an assumption isn't very helpful without some idea of how to test it.
And you might want to specify "other assumptions". Are there some which are as little evidenced as yours?
My last point seems like a restatement of others' previously made points. Provided that symmetry does result in the savings I theorize, it is equally intuitive that life forms who directly choose mates based on fitness indicators would see symmetry increasingly favorably. Such a life form "understands" on an "instinctual" level that symmetry is a boon to fitness and advantageous to enhance within one's offspring.
Symmetry as a boon --You're not the first to suggest this. Have you read "The Red Queen" by Ridley?
Things which are "intuitive" may be right, they are also very often wrong. That is no more than a starting point for the very knowledgable whose intuition might be more to the point than the less knowledgable.
------------------
Common sense isn't

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