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Author Topic:   Black Holes Don't Exist
Colbard
Member (Idle past 1645 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 61 of 174 (741707)
11-14-2014 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Son Goku
11-13-2014 10:39 AM


Ancient knowledge of matter
Son Goku writes:

What ancient society believed this?

If you become familiar with the characteristics and workings of the background forces in the authentic King James version of the (English) Bible, then you will be able to recognize in which ancient cultures these concepts were known.
There were times when almost every person on earth knew about them, and the remnants of such knowledge can still be found in myths and legends, religious beliefs, archaeology, art, hieroglyphs etc.

Speaking of the knowledge of the ancients that lived between 5,300 and 4,200 BC the Bible says - For God showed them the invisible things from Him in the creation of the world, which can be clearly seen and understood by observing the things which have been created, even the knowledge of how God creates through His own eternal power.
That can be found in Romans 1:18-22.

The vehicle of discovery is not guessing or doubting, but believing first and getting the evidence as a reward. A correct theory followed by research should verify it.
So real faith has nothing to do with organized religions, but with an instinct and knowledge towards God that everyone is indiscriminately given.

The Bible repeatedly states that matter is not made of matter, but of things which cannot be detected in matter except by knowledge and observation.
Hebrews 11:3 -by faith we understand that God made worlds, that were framed by the word of God, so that things which are tangible are not made of tangible things, but invisible.

There are hundreds of texts that go into detail about every aspect of nature, and yet this book has been trashed by fools - religious and others, for millenniums.

By refusing to acknowledge what's outside of the test tube and paperwork, science will be continually refuting previous conclusions, because their model is based on matter being self existent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:39 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1663 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 62 of 174 (741717)
11-14-2014 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Son Goku
11-13-2014 10:37 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
In modern physics, antimatter and dark matter interact with and cause spacetime curvature just as much as normal matter.

In the case of dark matter, the interaction is dark, at least in understanding. (the WIMP)

quote:
There is something "behind" matter in modern physics and that is the quantum fields.

Or active imagination…

quote:
That said, quantum fields are extremely complicated objects, they are not "energy" or "elements". As I've said before on these forums, the everyday object they most closely resemble is a spring mattress.

Similar to aether… wasn’t that a scaler field?

According to ancient and medieval science, aether (Greek: αἰθήρ aithēr[1]), also spelled æther or ether, also called quintessence, is the material that fills the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere.
wiki

quote:
Matter is a result of quantum fields being excited locally, but not generally. That is, if a small part of the field in one region is energetic, we get a particle. If the whole field were full of energy we'd get what are known as field states, which don't really resemble matter.

“Aristotle, the most famous of the early Greek philosophers, didn't agree with the idea of atoms. In the fourth century BC he taught that all matter is composed of different combinations of four elements earth, air, fire, and water. “ http://coe.kean.edu/phys1000/powerpoint/cpch11-14.pdf

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:37 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 6:38 AM zaius137 has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1663 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 63 of 174 (741718)
11-14-2014 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Son Goku
11-13-2014 10:39 AM


Re: Mass and gravity thing
quote:
What ancient society believed this?

Aristotle...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:39 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 64 of 174 (741721)
11-14-2014 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Colbard
10-31-2014 9:47 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Personally I have never believed in GR, SR etc, because they are without any greater context.

Personally I have never believed in GR, SR etc, because they don't include God.

Fixed that for you.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1150
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 65 of 174 (741723)
11-14-2014 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by zaius137
11-14-2014 3:43 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Similar to aether… wasn’t that a scaler field?

No, the aether was not a scalar field.

In the ancient greek version it wasn't specified enough to know what type of field it could be, or if it was a field.

The Aether of the 19th century couldn't be a scalar, since it was meant to carry the Electric and Magnetic fields which are vectors. It also wasn't a field, since that is exactly the idea it aimed to replace/make unnecessary.

Or active imagination…

A vague sentence with no content, do you have a specific criticism? You can say silly leading sentences like this with anything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 3:43 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 11:56 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1150
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 66 of 174 (741724)
11-14-2014 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by zaius137
11-14-2014 3:44 AM


Re: Mass and gravity thing
Aristotle didn't believe in "the Waters and the Light". He thought matter was composed of the four classical Greek elements obeying what we call Aristotlean physics and the Aether obeying another set of laws he never specified.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 3:44 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1663 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 67 of 174 (741751)
11-14-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Son Goku
11-14-2014 6:38 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
In the ancient greek version it wasn't specified enough to know what type of field it could be, or if it was a field.
The Aether of the 19th century couldn't be a scalar, since it was meant to carry the Electric and Magnetic fields which are vectors. It also wasn't a field, since that is exactly the idea it aimed to replace/make unnecessary.

But the Higgs field is scaler and just as arbitrary as far as aethers go. Greeks did not know about electric and magnetic fields.

quote:
A vague sentence with no content, do you have a specific criticism? You can say silly leading sentences like this with anything.

My apology, participants never use vague language in this forum. This is particularly true of your language. i do not wish to shock anyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 6:38 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 12:18 PM zaius137 has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1150
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 68 of 174 (741764)
11-14-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by zaius137
11-14-2014 11:56 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
My apology, participants never use vague language in this forum. This is particularly true of your language. i do not wish to shock anyone.

Thanks for the compliment, but I'd like to know what is your criticism of the idea of quantum fields?

But the Higgs field is scaler and just as arbitrary as far as aethers go. Greeks did not know about electric and magnetic fields.

How is the Higg's field arbitrary?

Three things:
(a) The 19th century Aether was not arbitrary, there was a solid reason to introduce it, namely to explain how Maxwell's equations of electrodynamics seem to produce results independent of a reference frame. Their explanation was that the equations are actually the equations of electromagnetism in the frame of a fluid they called the Aether. They were wrong, Maxwell's equations are frame independent due to relativity, but it wasn't an arbitrary idea.
(b) There are specific reasons for introducing the Higgs' boson. Which I see from my post history I have explained to you before. So rather than repeat them, could you tell me why you find them lacking.
(c) Quantum Fields have very different behaviour to Aether models. Specifically their probabilistic nature.

I know the Greeks did not know about electric and magnetic fields, that is why I prefaced it with "The Aether of the 19th century". Still though the Greek Aether was not a scalar.

Do you know what a scalar field is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 11:56 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 1645 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 69 of 174 (741812)
11-14-2014 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Larni
11-14-2014 4:57 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
larni writes:

Personally I have never believed in GR, SR etc, because they don't include God.
Fixed that for you.

I was talking strictly about the background forces of matter, which are not God at all, but part of the system and order of forces designed to create matter.


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 Message 64 by Larni, posted 11-14-2014 4:57 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 1645 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 70 of 174 (741813)
11-14-2014 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Son Goku
11-14-2014 12:18 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
[Son Goku](c) Quantum Fields have very different behaviour to Aether models. Specifically their probabilistic nature.[/qs]

Do you mean that QFs allow random events?


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 174 (741842)
11-14-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Colbard
11-13-2014 6:12 AM


Re: QM
...but disagree with separate packages of energy.
I think of those packages as peaks in a continuous wave, where the troughs are the gaps between the packages.

How are these two statements not contradictory. You don't accept separate packages of energy, but you do believe in separated packages of energy?

When one of those packages interacts with matter (for example during the photo electric effect, what happens to the remaining packages?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Colbard, posted 11-13-2014 6:12 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1663 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 72 of 174 (741843)
11-15-2014 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Son Goku
11-14-2014 12:18 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
(b) There are specific reasons for introducing the Higgs' boson. Which I see from my post history I have explained to you before. So rather than repeat them, could you tell me why you find them lacking.

In regards to the question of mass, how many more mechanisms are there besides the Higgs mechanism (those for gaguge bosons)?

[Given that particular limitation of the Higgs description of mass and the arbitrary nature of the descriptive power it has.]

My objections remain the same regarding all pervasive fields (fields that take on a constant value everywhere). Nothing new under the sun, the original concept coming from the ancients…

Archimedes' says give me a leaver long enough and a place to put it and I will move the world. QF says give us enough free parameters and arbitrary fields to put them in and we will describe the universe.

quote:
The universe is indeed "full" of these fields and they do indeed span the space between stars, with the stars themselves being typically low energy excitations of these fields, like most conventional matter.

I hope you are not implying anything other than a local influence of field theory. Scaling the field theory is fraught with unsolvable problems.

quote:
Matter is a result of quantum fields being excited locally, but not generally. That is, if a small part of the field in one region is energetic, we get a particle. If the whole field were full of energy we'd get what are known as field states, which don't really resemble matter.

Only certain categories of matter. I would assume you do not refer to most normal matter.

And do those field states include vacuum energy?

In my opinion QFT has no inroads into matter. We could cover these one at a time, but I am sure you are familiar with them in detail (things like anti-matter). Forces like gravity… You know all the big stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 12:18 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Son Goku, posted 11-15-2014 7:14 AM zaius137 has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1150
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 73 of 174 (741846)
11-15-2014 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by zaius137
11-15-2014 12:23 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
In regards to the question of mass, how many more mechanisms are there besides the Higgs mechanism (those for gaguge bosons)?

For mass generation the standard model has two mechanisms:
(a) The Higgs Mechanism
(b) The potential energy of Strong Force interactions. For example the protons mass is 99% the potential energy of the strong force between the quarks. The internal quarks themselves contribute very little mass.

I hope you are not implying anything other than a local influence of field theory.

No, quantum fields obey local interactions.

Scaling the field theory is fraught with unsolvable problems.

What do you mean by scaling the theory?

My objections remain the same regarding all pervasive fields (fields that take on a constant value everywhere). Nothing new under the sun, the original concept coming from the ancients…

Quantum fields do not take on a constant value everywhere. In fact due to being quantum mechanical, they don't take on definitive values. You are thinking of quantum fields as if they were classical objects.

The addition of quantum mechanics makes quantum fields completely unlike any "ancient" model.

Only certain categories of matter. I would assume you do not refer to most normal matter.

No, all normal matter is an excitation of sets of quantum fields.

In my opinion QFT has no inroads into matter.

Aright here is my only real question to you. Quantum field theory predicts (due to instanton states and anomalies) that the mass of the eta prime meson is 957.67 MeV. This is exactly the mass found in particle accelerators for the eta prime meson.

So my questions are:
(a) If quantum field theory is incorrect or inaccurate, why does it get this mass correct?
(b) Do you have a theory besides quantum field theory which produces an accurate mass for the eta prime?

We could cover these one at a time, but I am sure you are familiar with them in detail (things like anti-matter).

Quantum field theory predicts anti-matter, so I don't understand how it makes no inroads into anti-matter.

Forces like gravity… You know all the big stuff.

Why does quantum field theory need to describe everything in order to be correct? Yes, it doesn't describe gravity, but is it incorrect in what it does describe?
(Photosynthesis is not a failed theory because it doesn't describe animal digestion)

Edited by Son Goku, : Spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by zaius137, posted 11-15-2014 12:23 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 1645 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 74 of 174 (741849)
11-15-2014 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
11-14-2014 11:58 PM


Re: QM
NoNukes writes:

How are these two statements not contradictory. You don't accept separate packages of energy, but you do believe in separated packages of energy?

When one of those packages interacts with matter (for example during the photo electric effect, what happens to the remaining packages?

The background force has two characteristics one which causes energy to be stored or not revealed the other which causes energy to be released or expressed.
Matter is an oscillation between those two characteristics, so we have packages of energy. But the gaps between are also packages of stored energy which does not reveal itself to us, except in theory.

Those changeovers of energy can happen in any amount of time, from nano seconds to millions of years on a grand scale. The fluctuations between these two forces can be seen, for example on the surface of the sun, where stored energy enters the sun, and energy is released, producing sunspots and flares, respectively.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2014 11:58 PM NoNukes has responded

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Astrophile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


(1)
Message 75 of 174 (741857)
11-15-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Colbard
11-10-2014 6:05 PM


Re: Black Hole found
Who said lots of matter clumped together would collapse?

Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (1910-95) said it in 1930, when he showed that there is an upper limit to the mass of white dwarf stars. You should read 'Empire of the Stars' by Arthur I Miller to learn about his dispute with Sir Arthur Eddington on this matter.

Edited by Astrophile, : Grammatical error.


This message is a reply to:
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