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Author Topic:   Wither Greece?
Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 5 of 46 (761789)
07-05-2015 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
07-05-2015 5:51 PM


Re: basic
An economy is based on the movement of money,
That thinking has led to the last several decades of U.S. decline, the recent recession, and willful government ignorance of the greedy wheeling and dealing of Wall Street bankers. Oh, and the Greek economic crisis.
Economies are based on the creation of actual things that provide actual utility.
Illusions are based on the movement of money.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2015 5:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 07-05-2015 8:01 PM Jon has replied
 Message 8 by anglagard, posted 07-05-2015 11:27 PM Jon has replied
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2015 6:51 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 46 (761807)
07-05-2015 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
07-05-2015 8:01 PM


Re: Greece: From the Frying Pan into the Fire
If you cant pay it back you shouldn't kill yourself trying.
More than that, you shouldn't borrow it in the first place.
Of course, sometimes that unavoidable.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 07-05-2015 8:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 10 of 46 (761827)
07-06-2015 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by anglagard
07-05-2015 11:27 PM


Re: basic
I seem to have been unclear again
I wasn't arguing that money wasn't involved.
I was trying to point out that simply moving money doesn't build an economy even though it shows up as increasing GDP (GDP just measures how much money exchanges hands).
Money has to have something real to back it.
In the case of people borrowing to cover a trade deficit, the money has nothing to back it and such a system will eventual collapseno matter who has the money.
This equation is why sending all the proceeds from improved productivity to the top 1% does not help the economy as much as sending it to the other 99%. It is because the other 99% spends it on goods and services rather than hoard it, thereby increasing the velocity of money.
Exactlyit spurs the production of actual things with actual utility.
Money is just a tool.
Economic prosperity has to come from the production of actual things with actual utility. If it doesn't (as in the case of borrowing to cover a trade deficit or people getting rich in the 'financial sector') the 'prosperity' is an illusion. And it only takes one person to look behind the curtain, expose the con, and send the whole system tumbling down.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by anglagard, posted 07-05-2015 11:27 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 46 (762045)
07-07-2015 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
07-07-2015 8:42 PM


Re: Work, Wages, Salaries, Income
The Greek government hasn’t the financial power to create the kinds of infrastructure programs required, but the rest of the budding Federal European Union does. They must keep the Greek government out of the programs as much as possible because of its history of corruption and its demonstrated incompetence is handling fiscal requirements. Think of a Greater InterEuropean Highway system fully funded, controlled and managed in Brussels using Greek labor and contractors along with projects to modernize port facilities, water conservation and dam facilities, hospitals, schools, etc. within Greece. Billions of over 5 years or less.
.  . .
The Eurozone Monetary Union was set up as a first step to a full political Federal European Union. The Germans and the French, the biggest proponents of such a union, are now in a position take the next step and demonstrate to the rest of the EU members what such a Federal Union can accomplish for the good of the states within such a union.
Right now Deutsche Bank and Chancellor Merkel are strangling both Greece and the hope of a Federal Republic of Europe with the same hand.
Well, no other nation can simply step in and tell the Greek government to fuck off.
No matter how much arm twisting there is, there must always be a semblance of Greek free will.
And that means that if the Greeks say 'no', then 'no' it is.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2015 8:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 07-08-2015 1:33 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 46 (762599)
07-13-2015 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
07-13-2015 8:17 AM


Re: The Latest Agreement
Listening to the news on this and I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
Greeks will now be paying an outrageous sales tax rate of 20%!! (They were already paying 16(?)%.)
It seems it wasn't clear enough that corruption and letting the rich skate without paying their share of taxes was at the heart of the problem to begin with, now they decide to implement more schemes to tax the poor more than the rich.
And of course sales taxes don't generate any government revenue if nobody has any money to buy stuff.
Greece is soon to be another one of many failed states.
ABE: I guess this tax would only be on meals, but sales taxes are increased generally, which hurts industries such as tourism.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 07-13-2015 8:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by caffeine, posted 07-14-2015 5:58 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 41 of 46 (762625)
07-14-2015 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by caffeine
07-14-2015 5:58 AM


Re: The Latest Agreement
Sales taxes are regressive.
The higher they are, the more they shift the tax burden to the poor and off the rich.
The folks who wrote up this deal are delusional if they think it will actually help Greece.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by caffeine, posted 07-14-2015 5:58 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by caffeine, posted 07-14-2015 7:46 AM Jon has not replied

  
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