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Author Topic:   Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 59 (762692)
07-14-2015 2:56 PM


Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money?

Religions and many charitable organizations of all stripes make their revenues by lying to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ9oBCLwwL0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ling-waste-hidden-agendas.html

Should we help protect the gullible by eliminating all the fraud that is being passed off as religion and charity?

Those who do not believe the lies being sold by religions and charities are presently subsidize the tax exemptions and credits that religions and charities enjoy. What they save in taxes, non-believers and those who actually want to give to charities must fork up.

I am not what most would call a non-believer, I am a Gnostic Christian, but still resent my hard earned tax money being used to perpetuate what most know are lies. If you are a non-believer, or one who wants your charitable donations to actually be used for charity, I hope you feel the same and do not like being fleeced the way the gullible are.

There ought to be a law against institution like religions and bogus charities that live off of lying to the gullible.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...re-than-82-5-billion-a-year

Do you agree?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 07-14-2015 9:29 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2015 9:35 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 16 by glowby, posted 07-16-2015 1:36 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
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Message 2 of 59 (762694)
07-14-2015 3:13 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 59 (762696)
07-14-2015 4:18 PM


Gia writes:

There ought to be a law against institution like religions and bogus charities that live off of lying to the gullible.

Fortunately in the US that would itself be illegal as well as utterly stupid.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:25 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 59 (762726)
07-14-2015 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-14-2015 2:56 PM


There ought to be a law against institution like religions and bogus charities that live off of lying to the gullible.

Just by way of example, are you prepared to point to any particular church official and demonstrate that he does not believe whatever it is that he is offering to his flock.

Because quite obvious, the fact that what he says disagrees with what GIA believes is at most evidence that one of the two of you is a fool. It is not evidence that either person is lying.

Further, although on EvC we may talk mostly about the Establishment Clause, but the Free Expression Clause surely prevents the state from inquiring into the details of the tenets of a religion. I kind like that state of affairs. Accordingly, I am willing to tolerate the existences of church whose beliefs are contrary to my own or to the expectations of GIA.

Your mileage may vary. Not available in all states. Some limitations apply. etc.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-14-2015 2:56 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Jon, posted 07-14-2015 9:31 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:32 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 59 (762727)
07-14-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
07-14-2015 9:29 PM


Because quite obvious, the fact that what he says disagrees with what GIA believes is at most evidence that one of the two of you is a fool.

Just one of them?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19818
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 6 of 59 (762747)
07-15-2015 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-14-2015 2:56 PM


Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money?

The problem is that lying is difficult to prove\demonstrate as it involves the intent to deceive - so if the teller believes it is true there is no deceit, no lie.

You can have a law against providing false information for money -- that is called fraud.

False information can be demonstrated: if someone claims to have a degree and you can show that the degree doesn't exist ...

If someone claims the earth is less than 10,000 years old you can show that there are tree rings that show a greater age ...

If this "information" is sold or exchanged for money then fraud has been committed.

There ought to be a law against institution like religions and bogus charities that live off of lying to the gullible.

Can you protect people from being fools?

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-14-2015 2:56 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:39 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 07-15-2015 4:12 PM RAZD has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 59 (762749)
07-15-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
07-14-2015 4:18 PM


jar

So much for doing unto others.

How is protecting the gullible from priests, imams and other liars posing as charities against the law?

Is fraud not illegal in your location?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 07-14-2015 4:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 07-15-2015 11:57 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 07-15-2015 3:13 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 8 of 59 (762750)
07-15-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
07-14-2015 9:29 PM


NoNukes

Christians believe that babies go to heaven.

They also believe that most will sin and get on that wide road to hell instead of the narrow path to heaven.

Most priests should then advocate abortion and baby killing as a way to insure that the majority instead of the minority get to heaven.

If they truly believed what they preach, that would be the moral thing to do, yet they do not do what is best for the majority, --- because they do not believe their own dogma.

IOW. Priests and imams are liars and con men.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 07-14-2015 9:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 07-15-2015 4:08 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2015 8:16 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 59 (762751)
07-15-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
07-15-2015 9:35 AM


RADZ

Yes you can protect someone from being a fool.

That is what fraud laws do.

The I.D. court have already judged that Christianity lied in trying to put creationism in schools so there are limits to the lies that society will tolerate.

I just think a stronger message should be sent as Christians obviously are too stupid to get the politically correct one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtC052f9A4

Are we not our brothers keeper and should we not follow the golden rule and try to protect the gullible from religious con men?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2015 9:35 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2015 2:30 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 59 (762752)
07-15-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Greatest I am
07-15-2015 11:25 AM


Well it seems you are even ignorant about the meaning of basic English as well as totally ignorant about basic human rights in the US.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:25 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 11 of 59 (762758)
07-15-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Greatest I am
07-15-2015 11:25 AM


Greatest I am writes:

Is fraud not illegal in your location?


Since fraud is already illegal, what changes are you proposing?

Edited by ringo, : Punchuation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:25 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:35 PM ringo has responded
 Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:36 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 59 (762764)
07-15-2015 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Greatest I am
07-15-2015 11:32 AM


Christians believe that babies go to heaven.

They also believe that most will sin and get on that wide road to hell instead of the narrow path to heaven.

Most priests should then advocate abortion and baby killing as a way to insure that the majority instead of the minority get to heaven.

Well, no. Even if a priest accepted that most will sin, the priest might well believe that the few who will not are worth waiting to see. But that's just one possible thought process. The priest might also believe that killing prior to sin is evil. Doubtlessly there are other thoughts and scenarios under which a priest might not advocate killing. Perhaps the priest simply thinks that the 10 commandments are valid and that advocating killing is immoral.

In any event, this is yet another thread in which your loony logic fails and with that failure comes the meaningless of the entire thread. I surely wish that more time was spent vetting this nonsense before approval.

The I.D. court have already judged that Christianity lied in trying to put creationism in schools so there are limits to the lies that society will tolerate.

Sigh. It is also the case that the Dover trial did not involve any determination of whether any theology was correct or incorrect. In fact the state is prevented from making such judgments. Instead the issue was whether there was an attempt to insert religion into a science class. Now if you can show me a ruling that prevents the same teaching from being offered in Sunday School, then perhaps you have an example for which we can establish precedence.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:32 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 07-15-2015 5:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 59 (762765)
07-15-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
07-15-2015 9:35 AM


You can have a law against providing false information for money -- that is called fraud.

Probably still requires an intent to deceive if you want to do anything more than simply make the person stop nroviding the information. Fraud requires an intent to deceive about something material to the transaction.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2015 9:35 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:43 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2015 2:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 14 of 59 (762769)
07-15-2015 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
07-15-2015 4:08 PM


when he says
GIA writes:

The I.D. court have already judged that Christianity lied in trying to put creationism in schools so there are limits to the lies that society will tolerate.

he is just onceagain showing his ignorance.

Christianity and Christian Clergy have always been at the forefront opposing Creationism in public education and I have pointed that out to GIA on several instances. Yet again, here is the Pastoral Letter issued by Bishop Sims back in 1981. Here is an excerpt from that document.

quote:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Legislation is pending before the Georgia State Legislature which calls for the public financing and teaching of Scientific Creationism as a counterunderstanding to Evolution, wherever the evolutionary view is taught in the public schools.

Scientific Creationism understands the cosmos and the world to have originated as the Bible describes the process in the opening chapters of Genesis.

The 74th Annual Council of the Diocese of Atlanta, in formal action on January 31, 1981, acted without a dissenting vote to oppose by resolution any action by the Georgia Legislature to impose the teaching of Scientific Creationism on the public school system. A copy of the resolution is attached to this Pastoral.


GIA seems totally incapable of even investigating the very basics of the subjects he attempts to rant about.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6744
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 15 of 59 (762778)
07-15-2015 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Greatest I am
07-15-2015 11:32 AM


GIA writes:

Christians believe that babies go to heaven.

Christians believe whatever they like. Catholics have the (evil) concept of limbo where babies go that haven't been baptised - neither heaven nor hell.

The last pope thought he might do away with that notion, but never got round to it so I guess it still exists.

I mean really, wtf?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:32 AM Greatest I am has responded

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