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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why Do Gay Men Sound Gay? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The last sentence does not imply the presumption in the first sentence is false I am not saying it does. So we're in agreement that you weren't constructing a logical argument.
Dr A was reinforcing a stereotype quote: Is not reinforcing a stereotype.
So you want to get into a pissing match? You got your cock out. Why else?
The only reason I mentioned it is that I wanted to express I was speaking from at least some personal experience. In contrast to Faith who is just spewing bigotry. ...but you were talking to Dr. Adequate. And what makes you think Faith is not talking from personal experience?
I think personal experience has as much or more legitimacy than a stereotype. The one is not necessarily in contradiction with the other. Stereotypes are cognitive tools for categorizing the world and thinking about groups. Personal experience is a part of their formation and persistence.
My point exactly. Lets look at the science not the stereotypes that everyone seems comfortable with. So far the only thing vaguely scientific I've seen in this thread has confirmed its existence.
Obviously the point about the harm of stereotypes is lost on you and others in this thread. I didn't realize you were so high minded, my apologies. Please tell me - a bisexual, cross dressing, mentally ill person - about how stereotypes can lead to harmful conclusions. Had it occurred to you that my position on stereotypes is lost on you? Stereotypes are a problem when one assumes the characteristics of the group apply to all its individuals, and thus tend to treat all individuals in the group accordingly
Even if 5 times as many gay men had a "gay sounding" voice than straight men, it would still be a stereotype. It wouldn't however, be intrinsically harmful to observe this phenomena and comment on it such as 'Some gay men do in fact sound gay'. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
quote: I think maybe you were a bit too quick to jump on this one. The camp voice is quite obviously 'a thing'. It's not used by all gays of course and some - I think a relative few - straight men apparently have it although I've personally never met one. (There's a UK stand-up commedian who gets a laugh from it tho'). It's a stereotype like any other I suppose, but unless it's used to harm, it's, well, harmless - almost affectionate. I think those that have it, use it deliberately - a sort of signal or differentiator or self-image conformation. I should say that I live in one of Europe's major gay cities so meet hundreds of gay men (and women, and etc) day in and day out - relatively few affect 'the voice' and some that do, do it with considerable humour. I may be accused of stereotyping, but I have to say that the most precociously gay people I meet are also the funniest people I meet. I mean laugh out loud, couldn't-give-a-fuck, theatrically, piss-yourself funny. And fantastically generous. But that's just my personal experience. There's a tranny in my town called Patty O'Doors that just creases me up. (Apologies if that's a referrence only Brits might get. And yes, I know that trannies aren't necessarily - or even usually, gay.)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
But your ideas of this are not at all what Faith meant in the OP. Faith used the term Sound Gay as a pejorative.
Unless you want to discount everything Faith has said in this thread about the subject, especially the exchange with NoNukes. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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I have to write something here because I don't want to be thought of as exclusively 'berating' someone. As a Mancunian, my favourite nights out in the city are in 'gay town' or 'canal street' or 'anal treet'. Straight bars can feel positively depressing or even threatening in comparison. Never forget the night some scrote started getting in our faces only to be picked up and thrown into the canal by a random passing six foot tall transsexual woman in heels. Everybody helped him back out, of course.
There's a tranny in my town called Patty O'Doors that just creases me up. (Apologies if that's a referrence only Brits might get. And yes, I know that trannies aren't necessarily - or even usually, gay.) I maybe thinking of someone else - but I think Patty O'Doors would generally be referred to as a 'drag queen' (it's certainly a name typical for drag queens). It's a different kettle of fish from transvestites...who generally prefer 'cross dresser'. 'Trannies' is kind of why cross dressers prefer that term - it's not a word that is traditionally used kindly (googling it is very NSFW - lots of porn uses the term). Historical usage of the term in general has left it tasting sour, though like other such terms - some people have taken to reclaiming/owning it. Though it can be used innocently, or even affectionately - in the medium you are in (ie internet forum) - I'd suggest sticking to a term almost nobody objects to. And that's how to set boundaries without demanding a person conform to the politically correct line through outrage. I hope.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Faith uses the term gay as a pejorative in the title of the OP. Why Do Gay Men Sound Gay? Read that again and tell me how you can rationalize it in that "Sound Gay" is not an attempt to say there is a problem with how they sound. How is "gay" a pejorative? And most everybody else seems to understand what it means to "sound gay," even you, otherwise you'd have nothing to complain about. The fact of the matter is that a lot of gay people do speak like that, and actually it would seem that you're the one implying that there's something wrong with it. That's the irony about this whole thing!"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
while at least as many white men as black men like watermelon. Watermelon eating may be the best example of a stereotype that is not based on the truth at all. Surely there are far more white men in the US who like watermelon that there are black men who do so. The stereotype regarding black people and watermelon dates back to post civil war days where growing and selling watermelons was a method of deriving income for newly freed blacks who saw an economic opportunity. Some whites made fun of blacks and watermelons at the time out as an expression of animosity. Everyone was eating watermelons back then, but blacks were mostly around them and eating them. Of course that is not the reality or a reflection of the truth anymore. There is absolutely no truth or basis to the stereotype in the form in which it currently exists. No evidence that any person of any color is more prone to eat watermelon. All that there really is regarding this stereotype is an echo to an era that 99 percent of people had nothing to do with, and that (with respect to race relations) has very little to recommend it. Yes I have seen black and white children voraciously eating watermelon after a soccer game on a hot day in North Carolina. But I cannot distinguish between their behaviors in anyway. It ain't a black thing. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's all just your assertion against mine anyway. You haven't even made an assertion. You claimed to 'think' something. Why make up your mind about something like that without at least looking for facts? Yeah, you are certainly allowed to have your own thoughts. But how is making stuff up and then sticking to it a reliable process? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
A lesbian friend of mine had a gay hairdresser. (She kept her hair boyishly short in summer and I don't like short hair on women but she was cuter than two buttons.) I pictured her hairdresser as slim, well-groomed, well-dressed, etc.
Unfortunately, my friend died and at the funeral I met the hairdresser. He was fat and bald and wearing a brown suit. He looked more like my grandfather than a gay hairdresser.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Long long ago and in a land far far away ...
I used to wander over to the Library of Congress. Many folk don't realize that the LOC has maybe the best collection of recordings in the world and that they are available just like books for people to enjoy. Back then I was really interested in regional sounds and among the collections at the LOC were all the recordings that had been made in the 30's and 40's under WPA grants. They recorded regional voices, fold singing on the porch, story telling, comparisons of the same story as read by folk from area to area.. almost an unlimited area to explore. There were about four of us who would drive down to spend a day listening to the records and tapes that were available. Often we'd spend hours listening to the same recording over and over simply lost in the nuances. Many of the recordings are available these days online.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Lammy.
Lammy writes: To further clarify, the reason you (and probably most other people) recognize this "gay" accent is because of the few that speak this way. In your experience, about what proportion of gay men would you say speak with the classical "gay accent"? Edited by Blue Jay, : No reason given.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
I've no idea. We see more of them around during pride parade and boys town. Other than that, we rarely ever encounter any.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the campy gay voice. One of my ex's was like that. I saw a video of him when he was little, and he acted and sounded just like that. So, it was very early on for him. Here's the thing with Faith's theory. My ex had a sister and 2 brothers. His dad and two brothers were very masculine when we visited them. As far as I could tell, the dad was just as nurturing as the mom. So... let's leave the attempts at coming up with explanations to the experts who do studies, shall we? I'm not sure why homophobes like Faith feel the need to explain everything, and I'm of the opinion that being gay can both be a choice and born this say.If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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You can leave off the PC "homophobe." My view of homosexuality comes first from my biblical perspective on everything, then from old experiences in psychological thinking, there's nothing about my personality that conditions my opinions, such as the fictional personality disorder PC calls "homophobia."
I know there are different life stories and that homosexuality can't be reduced to any particular clearcut cause, but from my own observations, the one I've come up with fits some. I also applied my reasoning to myself as I believe I developed my own sexual identity from conflicted relationships with my parents, particularly my mother. You don't have to take such ideas as intended to be universal but in my opinion there is reason to apply them in some cases. I'm surprised you say it can be a choice because that is one view of it I definitely DON'T have, unless it applies to a less than strong homosexual inclination. There are also situations where the person seems to be born with it, and certainly it's common for it to be apparent in very young children. But it always seems to be something that just happens to a person so I don't think of it as a choice. As for why bring this stuff up, I really wanted to know the various explanations for the gay voice because of the Trump voice on the humor thread, and this thread has been very educational on that topic, so that I now have some idea of what a "camp" voice is, and the believable explanation of the experts in the film that it's based on the female speech pattern which I wouldn't have recognized without their spelling it out. But I think I do have another motive and that is I am probably looking for a way to expose political correctness, and like to make issues out of controversial subjects because I object to their being controversial and object to the PC attempt to shut me up. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Lammy.
Lammy writes: I don't think there is anything wrong with the campy gay voice. For sure, there's not anything wrong with it. I just came in with the preconception that it was a really common thing, but I was basing that on a small sample size (I can only think of about a dozen openly gay men that I know). It sounds like I need to recalibrate my worldview.
Lammy writes: So... let's leave the attempts at coming up with explanations to the experts who do studies, shall we? Well, let's rely on the high-quality information they provide to inform our opinions, but let's not use that as a reason to avoid trying to understand it on our own. I think Faith is an intelligent person who's genuinely trying to understand. But I also think she's bringing a lot of philosophical baggage into the discussion, and I think it will ultimately prevent her from reaching a conclusion that I find reliable. Still, I believe there's value in the effort, so we should try to recognize her good qualities.
(Easy for me to say, right? I don't really have a horse in this race: I'm just here out of idle curiosity.) Lammy writes: I'm not sure why homophobes like Faith feel the need to explain everything... Well, I understand it. I'm a scientist: my main motivation in life is understanding how and why things are the way they are. I sometimes get frustrated with social and political pressures that inhibit my drive to learn what I want to know. On the other hand, I can also understand why the scrutiny could become incredibly fatiguing to a gay person.
Lammy writes: ...and I'm of the opinion that being gay can both be a choice and born this say. Heterogeneity is the general rule for everything, I think.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
There seems to be a feeling on this forum that stereotypes are ok if they are not a perceived bad stereotypes. Then again maybe some of you do not think this is a stereotype but a known fact. If you do you are wrong, plain and simple. If want to show you are not wrong, present evidence. There also seems to be a group that thinks that since they self identify as being part of the gay community that they should be the arbiter of if the "gay voice" stereotype is true or ok. That right there is a fallacy that they seem to be unwilling to grasp.
I have also been challenged to present scientific evidence about the "gay voice" stereotype. Studies have shown that they "gay voice" is more or less a myth.
quote:Read the whole article. Unless, of course your mind is made up. There is actually quite a bit of information on this stereotype and the fact that is not in fact a "gay" voice at all. Exposing the myth of the ‘gay voice’ Now lets look at the idea being put forward here that stereotypes are ok as long as they are not "bad" stereotypes. Nope. Science doesn't support that either.
quote:Why stereotypes are bad even when they're 'good' There is plenty of science to support this too, if any of you are so inclined to do the research. ABEHave any of you figured out yet that the whole OP is just an attempt by Faith to troll and express homophobic views? Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Jon Inactive Member |
I'm not sure why homophobes like Faith feel the need to explain everything, ... Is that a problem? If so, why? And is it only a problem when 'homophobes' 'need to explain everything'? If non-'homophobes' seek the same explanations, is that okay?Love your enemies!
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