Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Science in Creationism
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 684 of 986 (784199)
05-14-2016 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 683 by Dawn Bertot
05-14-2016 12:40 AM


Re: Huh?
Maybe they attack it because there is something wrong with it
I have presented the evidence, if you don't like my science or conclusion then just show they are invalid. Your task is impossible
You have presented no evidence, only your conclusions based on your religious beliefs masquerading as science.
And you have both attacked the scientific method and tried to co-opt its conclusions.
You can't have it both ways. Either you accept the methods of science and accept its conclusions, or you don't. Creationists try to pick and choose, and that is laughable.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-14-2016 12:40 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 709 of 986 (784259)
05-15-2016 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 696 by Dawn Bertot
05-15-2016 12:11 AM


Two definitions (again)...
Dawn writes:
...because they don't meet your jack ass Scientific Method approach, which I have demonstrated to many times to mention doesnt ANSWER ANY CONCLUSIONS ON EITHER SIDE WITH ABSOLUTE PROOF.
Here are a couple of definitions for you to learn from:

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
Proof: Except for math and geometry, there is little that is actually proved. Even well-established scientific theories can't be conclusively proved, because--at least in principle--a counter-example might be discovered. Scientific theories are always accepted provisionally, and are regarded as reliable only because they are supported (not proved) by the verifiable facts they purport to explain and by the predictions which they successfully make. All scientific theories are subject to revision (or even rejection) if new data are discovered which necessitates this.
Proof: A term from logic and mathematics describing an argument from premise to conclusion using strictly logical principles. In mathematics, theorems or propositions are established by logical arguments from a set of axioms, the process of establishing a theorem being called a proof.
The colloquial meaning of "proof" causes lots of problems in physics discussion and is best avoided. Since mathematics is such an important part of physics, the mathematician's meaning of proof should be the only one we use. Also, we often ask students in upper level courses to do proofs of certain theorems of mathematical physics, and we are not asking for experimental demonstration!
So, in a laboratory report, we should not say "We proved Newton's law" Rather say, "Today we demonstrated (or verified) the validity of Newton's law in the particular case of..." Source
That you keep harping on the "inadequacy" of the scientific method and misusing the well-defined terms of science speaks poorly for your knowledge of either.
Is it too much to ask that you actually learn something about science and how it works before posting long rants against it?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-15-2016 12:11 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-16-2016 12:00 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 769 of 986 (784512)
05-18-2016 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Faith
05-18-2016 6:55 PM


Re: pseudoscience?
And if the evolutionist claims are scientific, there is no reason the creationist reinterpretations should not be considered scientific too because we're dealing with the same material.
Its been said before, not all interpretations are of equal worth.
Some interpretations follow the data where it leads. These explain all the relevant data and ignore no relevant data, and they produce successful predictions. These interpretations become known as scientific theories, and there is virtually always only one successful theory at a time. There may be multiple competing hypotheses, but only one survives the process and goes on to become a scientific theory.
Other interpretations ignore large amounts of contradictory data and produce no successful predictions. By ignoring contradictory data these interpretations go against the scientific method, and by 1) not explaining all the relevant data and 2) producing no successful predictions, these interpretations cannot be considered to be scientific theories. They are best described as failed hypotheses.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Faith, posted 05-18-2016 6:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 816 of 986 (784590)
05-19-2016 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by Tangle
05-19-2016 6:00 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
In that case EVC should shut down and we should argue our case on the creationist sites where they actually live rather than arguing repetitive nonsense with Faith and, if we're lucky, one other loonie for the benefit of a few robots.
Creationist sites typically don't permit this type of debate. If you go against the local dogma you are banned rather quickly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Tangle, posted 05-19-2016 6:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 826 of 986 (784605)
05-20-2016 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 824 by Dawn Bertot
05-20-2016 12:38 AM


Re: The end zone
...for the necessary conclusion of evolution.
Just what is "the necessary conclusion of evolution?"

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-20-2016 12:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-20-2016 1:11 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 838 of 986 (784625)
05-20-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 828 by Dawn Bertot
05-20-2016 1:11 AM


Defining evolution
Coyote writes:
Just what is "the necessary conclusion of evolution?"
Evolution is an investigation into the natural world. It has a process and a necessary conclusion of how these things got here in the first place.
It's conclusion is that things are here by Solely Natural causes. Since you did not witness this event, it follows you could have no direct evidence of your conclusion.
I thought so--you have no clue what "evolution" really is. Your definition is biased by your worldview and way too much time spent with creationist literature or websites.
A definition from the web:
Evolution:
the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
Note, there is nothing about origins in there. Evolution works just fine whether there were natural causes for origins or whether Zeus poofed things into existence.
(When one opines about science without knowing what one is talking about, one looks pretty silly.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-20-2016 1:11 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 858 of 986 (784659)
05-21-2016 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
05-20-2016 10:35 PM


Re: evidence schmevidence
Whether wolves or dogs have less genetic diversity could tell you which started out with the smaller population...
But this information can also tell you the parent populations and the daughter populations.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 05-20-2016 10:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 946 of 986 (784826)
05-24-2016 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 944 by Dawn Bertot
05-24-2016 12:22 AM


Falsifiability
Creationism can be detected in many ways. The only question before us is there science in my process. The answer is yes. Design is as easily detectable as awareness or consciousness.
One aspect of the scientific method is falsifiability.
How could the creationism/design hypothesis be falsified?
What test or what evidence could do that?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-24-2016 12:22 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 965 of 986 (784984)
05-26-2016 10:25 PM


Abject failure...
This thread was started with the object of showing that creationism is scientific. That effort has failed.
Instead we are being told that the scientific method is flawed and we need to degrade its definition to include any old nonsense.
Behe got nailed on this same tactic during the Dover trial--he had to admit that his personal definition of science was sufficiently broad to include astrology.
Creationists should just admit that what they are claiming is religious belief, and stop trying to co-opt the good reputation that science has earned over the centuries. Instead they seek to legitimize their religious beliefs by claiming they are doing science, and using the scientific method, while they are doing the exact opposite.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 968 of 986 (784988)
05-26-2016 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 967 by Dawn Bertot
05-26-2016 11:03 PM


Re: Strange inverted reasoning from Darwin to Dawn for Da win
And with this post, as with so many others, you affirm that what you are doing is peddling religious belief.
Religious belief is the exact opposite of science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 967 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-26-2016 11:03 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 969 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-26-2016 11:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 970 of 986 (784990)
05-26-2016 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 969 by Dawn Bertot
05-26-2016 11:18 PM


Re: Strange inverted reasoning from Darwin to Dawn for Da win
Dawn writes:
But if you'd like to show me the chain of causality from the brain to consciousness, I'm all ears
That has nothing to do with whether there is science in creationism.
Dawn writes:
And besides this you make religious belief sound dirty. Was that your intention indirectly
Religious belief uses methods exactly opposite to those used by the scientific method. You are trying to tear down the scientific method to sneak your religious belief in as science. It isn't working.
Like other creationists, you seem to think that by attacking science you somehow support your religious beliefs. That is false. To support your religious belief scientifically you have to present evidence and use the scientific method--and that's something you have not done.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-26-2016 11:18 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 971 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-26-2016 11:56 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 972 of 986 (784992)
05-27-2016 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 971 by Dawn Bertot
05-26-2016 11:56 PM


Re: Strange inverted reasoning from Darwin to Dawn for Da win
Whatever.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 971 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-26-2016 11:56 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 981 of 986 (785185)
05-28-2016 6:42 PM


Summation
The only science in creationism is creation "science" -- which is the exact opposite of real science.
Real science starts with evidence from the natural world and seeks to understand it through the scientific method.
Creation "science" starts with a conclusion based on religious belief and seeks to reinforce that belief through cherry-picking data, quote mining, ignoring contrary evidence, and any other methods they can come up with. They have to do this because 1) the methods used by science do not deal with the supernatural and 2) most claims based on religious belief that can be tested (i.e., the flood and young earth) have been disproved.
And then there's intelligent design -- a subset of creation "science" fraudulently designed to hide the religion in the hope of fooling school boards and courts.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024