Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 0/65 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Science in Creationism
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 16 of 986 (783136)
05-03-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Falsification
I maintain and will stand by the fact that clear and obvious purpose as a result of intricate design cannot be falsified because it has a truth to it as that of existence itself
Would you care to support this claim with evidence, or are you just going to repeat it a lot?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 7:30 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 9:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 986 (783149)
05-03-2016 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 9:02 PM


Re: Falsification
Yes I'll be happy to answer it. Is there clear Purpose as a result of things operating in a clear logical ordered fashion
If you mean ordered rather than orderly, then the answer is yes, those things which are ordered rather than merely orderly are by definition ordered according to some purpose.
Ordered Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Now all you would need to do is provide scientific evidence that living organisms were in fact ordered by someone, and you would have done what no-one else has and put some science into creationism.
Do you have any such evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 9:02 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 10:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 34 of 986 (783159)
05-03-2016 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 10:02 PM


Show Me The Evidence
Well that's about as silly an answer as I've ever heard. With a bit of jargon and wrangling you managed to avoid answering my clear question.
Actually, I said yes.
I said nothing about order, orderly or ordered.
Dawn, this is what you wrote.
Dawn Bertot, post #24 writes:
Is there clear Purpose as a result of things operating in a clear logical ordered fashion
Yes or no
If you don't like the fact that I gave a clear straightforward answer to the question you actually asked, try asking a different one. Though I warn you that my answer to that question might be equally clear and unambiguous.
The question Dr A is not whether I can prove absolutely whether God ordered these things but only whether I am using a scientific approach like any science to come to my conclusions.
That's an easy question. The answer is no.
You use the same type of evidence that things were a result of soley natural causes
No: because I use evidence, whereas you just waffle like this when challenged to present any.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 10:02 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 986 (783173)
05-03-2016 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 10:04 PM


Show Me The Evidence
Since I can clearly see these things in nature your answer would be the same as if I asked someone if things exist and they answered No
You need to do away with this purpose and order not just imagine they don't exist
You need to find evidence for this purpose, not just assert that you can "clearly see" it.
(No-one can "clearly see" purpose. I can clearly see the mug on my desk. It is red and yellow. What color is purpose? Well then.)
Do you have any evidence for this purpose of which you speak?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 10:04 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 12:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 40 of 986 (783181)
05-04-2016 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 12:56 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Do things exist Dr Adequate?
Yes.
And how did you come to this conclusion?
I've seen things.
Really who told you your mug was on your desk and who told you it was red and yellow?
No-one told me.
How did you come these conclusions?
Observation.
My simple minded friend I don't need to be told eyes and ears have a purpose. It's as clear as the mug that's really not on your desk right
No it isn't. This is why you need to provide evidence for this proposition.
Do you have any evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 12:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 1:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 42 of 986 (783184)
05-04-2016 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 1:22 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Why yes I have evidence. I can define and see with my eyes Purpose, because it allows me to visualize your faulty arguments
I'd say thats clear Purpose wouldn't you agree?
I'd say that that was incoherent gibberish.
Do my ears hear things, do your eyes see things. How would you describe this other than a design with a purpose, regardless of how it came about
As not being a design with a purpose.
The question of how it came about is in fact relevant to the question of whether it was purposely designed.
Do you have any evidence that this is the result of purposeful design?
Show me the evidence.
You see no pun intended, You can't just say purpose doesn't exist you need to demonstrate I can't ACTUALLY SEE things with my designed eyes.
No. I need to challenge you to produce evidence that they were designed, instead of you just claiming that without any proof.
Show me the evidence.
Since you've admitted things do exist. Maybe you can try and demonstrating that eyes don't actually see things and we are just imagining it
I don't claim that, so I don't need to demonstrate that.
You claim that your eyes were designed. You need to demonstrate that.
Show me the evidence.
Do your eyes and ears have a purpose?
No, just a function. Unless you have some evidence that they have a purpose?
Show me the evidence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 1:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 5:55 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 62 of 986 (783256)
05-04-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
05-04-2016 4:39 PM


Re: Falsification
The thing is that we use "law" to refer to our attempted summaries of the real tendencies of nature, rather than to those tendencies themselves. Still, disputing with Dawn over this relatively trivial point seems a waste of time when he's so lavishly and copiously wrong about everything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 4:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 5:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 986 (783269)
05-04-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 6:20 PM


Show Me The Evidence
When we say that existence and clear design are recurring facts in nature, they say this cannot be known as a truth, because it cannot be falsified.
Actually, I say that this "clear design" cannot be known as a truth because you can't find any evidence for it.
Show me the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 6:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 6:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 71 of 986 (783272)
05-04-2016 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 5:55 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
It's idiocy to confuse function with purpose.
That was kind of my point. We see that eyes have a function: allowing me to see, keeping me out of ditches, etc. Then along comes a creationist and commits what you describe as "idiocy".
The purpose remains, its called hearing and seeing. These are different than function.
No, hearing and seeing are the function of my sensory organs. To demonstrate that they are also their purposedesigned.
Show me the evidence.
If the natural Conclusion which it is, that existence is a result is Soleynatural causes, which is implied and at times directly stated by Naturalism, you would need exact evidence to demonstrate that tenet
And there is abundant evidence for that. But this thread is for you to demonstrate that creationism is scientific.
Show me the evidence.
The mug on your desk Dr Adequate, did you see that particular mug designed? Explain how you know it was designed. What is that evidential process
It goes like this. Whenever we know how some mug came into existence, we find that humans were involved in its design and construction. We generalize this into a general rule which we shall take to be true until we find evidence for a counterexample(the defining feature of science). Then given a mug where we have no direct knowledge of its origin, we interpret the mug according to the general rule.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 5:55 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 6:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 72 of 986 (783273)
05-04-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 6:29 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
That was not the totality of my argument and you didn't tell me how your particular mug was designed
You didn't ask; and there is insufficient data to know.
Was your mug designed
Of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 6:29 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 986 (783275)
05-04-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 6:45 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
As I suspected you use indirect evidence based on its design to determine that something as uncomplicated as a mug was designed
But you want us to provide absolute evidence not indirect evidence for something as complicated and intricate as the human brain
This is gibberish.
Also, do not tell me what I want. If you were right, it would be superfluous; as you are not, it is dishonest.
So where is your evidence your particular mug was designed
I have told you that. Did you miss it? Post #71. Have a look.
Can you give me an example of something humans have designed that doesn't have a function and purpose.
Things which are designed must necessarily have a purpose. (Using the term rather loosely.)
Do you have any evidence that organisms were designed or have a purpose?
Show me the evidence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 6:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 7:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 78 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 7:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 86 of 986 (783289)
05-04-2016 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 7:10 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Things are getting tough aren't they Dr A. Please give me and example of something a human designed that does not have a purpose
Since I just told you that, and I quote "Things which are designed must necessarily have a purpose." I am baffled to know why you are challenging me to produce a counterexample to my own claim. Are you by any chance barking mad?
If you can't I'll need to assume correctly that intricate design has a purpose.
All design has a purpose. This is not an assumption, it is true simply by definition.
Since you get to use indirect evidence for simple apparent unobserved design, I suppose I'm ok using indirect evidence for intricate design.
That would indeed be OK, if only you had any.
Show me the evidence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 7:10 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 87 of 986 (783290)
05-04-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 7:20 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Here's the problem Dr A. When a secular fundamental humanist asks us for Evidence, they mean direct absolute evidence.
Whereas when I ask you for evidence, what I mean is evidence. As you are talking to me rather than to the imaginary people who live in your head, perhaps what I mean is more relevant to our discussion.
Now, do you have any evidence? If so, please show me the evidence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 7:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 8:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 103 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 9:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 95 of 986 (783298)
05-04-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
I use the same indirect evidence you use to establish that things are here by soley natural causes
I doubt that very much. Just to check, can you show me the evidence you're using?
Do you deny your evidence of an unobserved event or cause is one of indirect evidence
Of course I do not deny this.
No, what You mean by evidence is something different
Please do not lie to me about what I mean.
am I justified and reasonable concluding that the intricate design at least indirectly supports Creation, correct?
Where is your evidence for intricate design in nature?
Show me the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 8:17 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 109 of 986 (783314)
05-04-2016 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 9:10 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Yes the same indirect evidence you use to establish unobserved events
I doubt that very much. But just to check, can you please show me this evidence?
In this case Intricate detailed design and purpose. It's not necessary to see this happening to know it's design
But it is necessary to have evidence for design and purpose.
Please show me the evidence.
In an earlier post you intimated that Function and purpose were the same thing.
No I did not. Please do not tell stupid lies.
Do you have any direct evidence for your conclusions of Soleynatural caused being a conclusion oOF evolution
You have not explained what you mean by "direct evidence", and the phrase "Soleynatural caused being a conclusion oOF evolution" is not written in the English language. If you will ask me a clear question I will answer it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 9:10 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 9:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 125 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 10:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024