The Tension of Faith

Thanks very much, KB, what a relief that there is at least one person here who sees it the way I do.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps. But I'd prefer it if they'd repent and be saved, just as God does:2 Peter 3:9:

The couple I have in mind regularly blaspheme God way beyond normal atheism, and say things that would seriously mislead others. If they repent and get saved I will of course be very happy. Is there anyone at all you yourself think might deserve Hell? Mass murderers? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Oh good grief. The expression "like to see them in Hell" doesn't mean I want to watch anyone be tortured, it means I think there may be a couple here who in my opinion rightly deserve punishment. Only two. I wouldn't name names. But wrong nevertheless, as even murderers are not put to death these days as God says they should be. Genesis 9:6: Why does just punishment have to be a "lashing out" or "animalistic vengeance?" It should be a solemn affair based on clear evidence that it is deserved, and executed with the desire that the person repent and ultimately be saved.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You're projecting the "smugness" and "glee" but what does it matter what I say?

I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANYONE TORTURED.There are lots of places in the Bible that describe what you all are doing, finding fault with someone who is not at fault, lying in wait to catch someone out for some innocent statement. Inventing crimes out of nothing, twisting words.

The problem with this reasoning is that it suggests God has some obligation to save people, but the biblical framework tells us that He has no such obligation. We all deserve Hell, that's where you have to start. And other religions leave you to your own efforts to avoid Hell. They don't have a Savior, they have a system by which you try to earn paradise or heaven or whatever by good works, and they have hells for those who don't succeed.Out of mercy God sent a Savior, first prophesying His coming for millennia, for those who will believe in Him, but you act as if it's not mercy, it's something we all deserve so there's something wrong with God for withholding it from those who refuse to believe in Him. That's backwards. Start with the fact that we all deserve Hell, and then consider how little it is He asks of us to be saved from it. But you complain that those who refuse to give that little should not be damned even though the terms are very clear. As for those who never heard of Jesus, there are probably fewer these days than ever before thanks to missionaries, but if you like you could join in getting the word out so more might be saved.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yeah but we don't know the number or who is and who isn't, so for all intents and purposes God's overarching sovereignty in predestination doesn't affect our choices.And I don't determine that we all deserve Hell, it's standard biblical theology. Any transgression of the Moral Law (The Ten Commandments being an abstract of it) makes us deserving of Hell. That's all it took for Adam and Eve to lose their standing with God, and most of us commit sins against the Moral Law every day.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Choosing or not choosing Christ certainly affects our salvation. (...that whosoever believes on Him should have eternal life.)Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Strange way to put it. But yes, if you insist on putting it that way. If you actually believe that Christ died to pay for your sins so that you won't go to Hell I suppose you could say God must save you. If you insist on putting it that way.

Yeah but that's just sophistry. Choosing to believe in a certain sense isn't possible, but if you really would choose to believe then you already believe and believing is what God asks of us.

But what is the basis of your beliefs? Why do you believe what you believe? What is it that changes that makes you change your beliefs? If your beliefs are based on the Bible I can see changing your views as you understand more of what the Bible means, but if the source of your beliefs is outside the Bible or contradicts the Bible I don't see how you could possibly have any confidence in any of it. What does this mean? If our understanding of God's character is based on the Bible we may nave an inadequate understanding just beause we don't fully understand the Bible's portrait of God, of course, but again,l if we4 are imagining God based on any other source I don't see how anyone could have any confidence in their idea of God's character.The Bible is our only reliable source of knowledge about God. We can get it wrong nevertheless, but we are SURE to get it wrong if the Bible isn't our authority. Well, I'd agree that Jesus IS the very image of God so that taking Him as our model for God's character is quite right, but Jesus is the God of the Old Testament so we'd be wrong to make too strong a distinction between the OT and the NT portraits of God. The OT shows us God as the judge of the world and the NT gives us Jesus as our Savior from that judgment.Jhn 3:17: People conclude wrongly that Jesus is more compassionate than the God of the Old Testament, when the fact is that He was sent to save us by God the Father, it's a matter of His purpose, not a difference in character. Consider the passage from Isaiah that Jesus quoted in the synagogue (Luke 4:18-19) to define His mission:Isa 61:1-3: Jesus read that passage in the synagogue only through the line "the acceptable year of the LORD" leaving out the following phrase "...and the day of vengeance of our God." He came to save, to comfort, to set free, not to bring God's judgment.But when He comes again it WILL be for that purpose. I'll have to look up the passages later, I've got to get this written for now. The point is that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, God the Son of course, the Second Person of the Triune God, He is not different, He has the same compassion and that's what He came to bestow on us in His first coming. But when He comes again it will be for vengeance.All just to say that yes, Jesus is the image of God but don't forget that we see Him now only in His role as Savior and not as Judge, though He will come as that Judge in the end. Yes but all other religions and atheists are following a false god so how could they NOT go to Hell? What do you base your idea on that they won't? The idea of the "higher Self" is a Hindu concept, it has nothing to do with the God of the Bible; what leads you to equate them? Not following this, doesn't make any sense to me. When we pray we pray to God in heaven, it can even be spiritually dangerous to pray to some idea of God within us. The Bible says He does. There's certainly no hint of such a thing in the Bible, so you must have some other authority for this idea. What is that authority? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

the problem, Phat, is that we can't rely on subjective experiences as our authority. People can think they are experiencing Christ in them, think they are hearing from Christ, and be wrong. We need an objective standard and that's why God gave us the Bible. Not to trivialize experience of course, I think personal experience is very important in solidifying our Christian faith, but it has to line up with scripture or we are in danger of being deceived.As for the doctrines of election and predestination there are references in the Bible to both concepts, just search on those terms. Predestinated, chosen, elect, etc. We are chosen "from the foundation of the world," which sounds like predestination to me.

But Phat, NONE of us, NOT ONE, would make it unless we were brought to understand and embrace the gospel of Christ.God's having mercy on whom He will have mercy is ironically enough a way of saying it is HE who does the choosing of those He will save. And when He has mercy He gives us the understanding of the gospel, He equips us with Biblical knowledge. While He COULD save people without such knowledge it would be very odd if He did it that way for some and not the rest of us, especially considering that the entire New Testament is a revelation of His sending the Messiah for the purpose of salvation. He COULD bypass all that if He wanted to but I don't see one iota of a reason why He would. Well then you are contradicting God Himself who gave us the Bible in order to protect us from all the errors we are prone to make through our own fallen minds. You can't have any idea of Christ without the Bible. God hasn't tricked anybody. Science went wrong about evolution and the age of the earth because it trusts in fallen intellect rather than in God's revelation.