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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Your argument only holds weight if Christianity is based on what we do versus what we believe. Bullshit Phat. Christianity, the religion, is based 100% on what people believe and not on anything they do. That is why there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of Christianity. There is no such things as "Christianity"; instead it is an evolving creation of each of the different Chapters of Club Christian and reflects the independent beliefs of each of those creations. What you may have meant to say is that my belief is that Christians (as well as all others) should do what the Bible claims Jesus said everyone (not just Christians) should do. But that is my belief. Other Christians market a Christianity based on "Not Prefect, Just Saved" or on "Born Again" or on "The essence of Christianity is Christs Death, Resurrection and ascension" or "Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" or "Onward Christian Soldiers" and on and on. Nowhere is Christianity based on what we do. It is always what we believe.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What you do matters 1000% more than what you believe.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: The allusion was not directed at you specifically. Under the circumstances, it's difficult to imagine it was directed at anyone else..... But I'm not bothered whether it was at me, at a different atheist or at all atheists generally, your language betrays an interesting prejudice. Atheists apparently are guilty of something and are hiding it. What is it? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Essentially I agree. It odd then that you keep repeating the claim.
The only point I’d make is that I don’t see how you can make the statement that atheists don’t believe that there is even a theoretical chance that Christ rose from the dead. However I’ll let you speak for the atheists. That's because such a claim needs evidence to support it. And not just any old evidence, really strong evidence because it flies in the face of all our knowledge of our physical world. And you have none at all. Which you admit next:
Yes, it is by faith that I believe that the NT writers were correct when they wrote that Jesus rose from the dead. Your entire belief system depends on the writers of your antique book being correct - and you don't even know who the authors were!Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps it is that they won't believe without evidence. I am not so worried that the existence of God supersedes natural laws in certain circumstances. You, of course, would call it wishful thinking and fantasy-based.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I would use the marketing slogan "Christianity is Christ".
You would then ask what that even meant. I would reply with another slogan...Its not a religion, its a relationship... You would likely go "Huh"? and tell me that my bumper sticker theology was likely word salad. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: People can believe in things that are not based on fact, reality, reason, logic or even common sense. The people who wrote the Bible stories were under the very same handicaps we experience; they were trying to explain what THEY believed. If I believe in the Nicene Creed, even if there is no God, no Holy Spirit, Jesus never existed, there is no life after death or judgement or salvation; I still believe in the Nicene Creed. Yes, I see. You believe in personal responsibility towards others even if Jesus was simply a fictional character in a book. I liked another answer that you gave years ago, in Who Can Be Saved? A Christian Perspective where you said in message 43 jar writes: Because in this statement you at least affirmed that Christ's death had value. I keep forgetting that you were trained at an early age to take on a variety of arguments which did not necessarily reflect your personal beliefs. Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer. Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not. My belief depends more on Christ existing and being who He is rather than on my personal responsibility to society. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But again those are examples of what you believe and as I pointed out, beliefs do not need to have any connection with reality or reason or logic or even actual meaning.
What you post is not related to actions, you have never explained what it means, It is a series of slogans that someone created and you accepted and so it is the Christianity you created, the Christ you created, the God you created. The Gods of the Bible are the same thing. The God in Genesis 1 would never even consider walking with you or even having any contact with you at all. The God in Genesis 2&3 would be really friendly and walk with you but expect you to do something that was totally impossible for you to do and as soon as you got the tools you need to do what was expected punish you for getting the tool and kick you out of the hose because the God was afraid you might get other tools. The God in Exodus would tell you to do something and when you said "sure, I'll do it" the God magically changes your answer from Yes to No and then punishes you. Each author was writing about beliefs. Each author created the God Character needed for that story.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: My belief depends more on Christ existing and being who He is rather than on my personal responsibility to society. There you go again. What does that mean? Granted, that is your "belief" but does it really mean anything?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Even though this line of thought makes me uncomfortable, I'll go with it for now. Each author was writing about beliefs. Each author created the God Character needed for that story. Reason being that I need a God character who is real, not one I make up. We have argued before about this and about how I create a God who favors Phat.The fact is, I could not live with a GOD who treated me no different from pond scum. You, on the other hand, have no problem even if God did not exist you would still believe in the Christianity that you market...one that favors no jew or Christian or individual above the group. You need personal responsibility...I reluctantly embrace it. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes:
OK Faith. Just which part are you going to choose here. This is from 2nd Samuel 24. Yahweh is mad at the Israelites and tells David to take a census as we can see.
There is no value to a Bible that is not inerrant. "All scripture is God-breathed" is enough evidence for me. And God has the power to do it. If I had to listen to preachers picking and choosing the way you do I would never be a Christian at all. You accuse me of worshiping the Bible which is totally false, but what you do by picking and choosing is put your own fallen mind in the place of God.quote:Now then we go to the next verse and David is conscience-stricken for having done what Yahweh told him to do and asks for forgiveness. quote:Now it gets stranger because even though Yahweh told David to take this census He punishes the Jews by bringing a plague and killing 70,000 of them. quote:To sum this up then we have Yahweh telling David to take a census, David complies but then feels guilty about doing what Yahweh told him to do and asks forgiveness. An unforgiving Yahweh though doesn’t even take it out on David but causes 70,000 of his chosen people to die. You would have us believe that the writer of 2nd Samuel got this exactly correct. Now however it gets more interesting because we go to 1st Chronicles and this is what the writer of that book tells us.quote: So now this writer is saying not that it was the Lord, as claimed in 1st Samuel, but that it is Satan and then goes on to tell how Yahweh killed 70,000 of the Israelites. Firstly then why is God slaughtering His chosen people for what David did? Does this sound remotely like God as we see Him embodied by Jesus? Secondly was it the writer of 2nd Samuel who says it was the Lord who told David to take the census, or did the writer of 1st Chronicles get it right when he says it was Satan? They can't both be right.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar writes: Even though this line of thought makes me uncomfortable, I'll go with it for now. Each author was writing about beliefs. Each author created the God Character needed for that story. The issue is not related to a line of thought but rather what the evidence shows. In the Bible stories the God Character constantly changes personality and traits to fit the needs of each story. In the Bible, God is not some single entity but a recitation of different beliefs and belief systems and laws and customs and politics and tribal relationships and national identities. This is the foundation of "The Tension of Faith" regardless of the faith under discussion. Buddhism is likely one of the least discordant examples while Christianity is likely an example of most discordant religions. Buddhism was created based on the behavior and teaching of one person over a relatively long period. But while it is a religion it does not have a God and very much like what Jesus actually taught, is almost entirely behavior based. Buddha created the Middle Way about 400 years or so before Jesus. It is less discordant because there was an acknowledgement from the beginning that it was based on the teachings and not the person and was not a continuation of anything that came before. Christianity is far far messier. First, the Buddha made it clear from the beginning that he had tried the existing religions and rejected both; some of the alleged quotations from Jesus suggest he felt the same but there the tension begins; almost immediately those comments are mixed in with ones where Jesus is quoted as accepting the existing religion but just wants to reform it. Christianity is discordant for another major factor. Jesus teachings cover a period of only three years. The Buddha though taught for a period of 45 years. Those who came after Jesus and created the nascent initial branch of Judaism tried to incorporate all of the prior Jewish writings and somehow force fit Jesus into those prior creations. The next iteration as seen in Paul's writings and the author of John create additional discordance. There were even arguments about whether or not people or children of folk already in the club could even join the club. Buddhism started with a clean slate and from beginning to end is primarily oriented around how people should behave. Jesus teachings as recorded in the Bible stories reflect much of what the Buddha taught and are primarily about how people should behave. But in Christianity the actual teachings are lost in thousands of years of Hebrew Cultural Mythos and about a hundred years of post Jesus politicking, editorial and interoffice memos and then a couple thousand years of Christian Cultism and revolution and politics and reformation. How could there be anything but tension in Christianity?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So you think Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it reluctantly unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
You need personal responsibility...I reluctantly embrace it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You think that if Jesus says "jump" I ask how high? I'm as rebellious as the next guy...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
But you're not asking how high. You're saying it's more important to believe Jesus said it than to do it. You think that if Jesus says "jump" I ask how high? I'm as rebellious as the next guy... Suppose He was saying, "Duck!" Does it matter who says it? Or should you just duck before you get your head blown off?
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