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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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"Thou shalt not commit adultery" only mentions committing, not thinking. Matt 5:27-28
quote: "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mention hate, in your heart or anywhere else. Matt 5 21-22
quote: I assume this is to what Faith is referring.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: Commandments aren't opinions and we are given no freedom to disagree with them.... Obviously false. The whole book of Leviticus, not to mention Deuteronomy, is a commentary on the commandments. There is a LOT of room for interpretation. It's God's own commentary. He is making clear what the commandments cover.
Even Bible-thumping Christians can't agree on a straightforward commandment like, "Thou shalt not kill." All Christians take "kill" to mean murder and always have.
Faith writes: ... we either obey them or violate them. quote:Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Yes, we ALL either obey them or violate them in any particular instance, the point is those are the only two options, we do not have the option of changing their meaning. And as I already said we all violate all of them them every day. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
dup
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Percy writes: When you say John is evidence, it is an evidence far different in character from that produced by real world events. When someone describes the real world using spoken or written words then that means the description has been filtered through the fog of a person's sensory and mental capacities, but that's only one of the possibilities. It's also possibly false or fictional or miraculous and so on. It isn't reliable or accurate the way real world evidence is. I don't think you can make such a blanket statement about all witnesses in all circumstances. And there's nothing particularly difficult about what John or any of the NT writers report of the miracles to suppose error through some sort of mental fog. Water turned to wine? How many ways could that be distorted by this supposed mental fog? Do you suppose it really didn't change at all or maybe turned to apple juice? A lifelong lame man walking? A lifelong blind man seeing? Give me a break. The circumstances of Jesus' ministry were electrifying enough to be vividly imprinted on everyone's memory. But the main problem with your argument is that any description that was faulty had dozens or even hundreds of witnesses ready and able to correct it. You seem to be imagining a lone witness such as might be the case in a court trial. The gospels would not have gone down as inerrant unless they passed all these tests.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God knows that when we think we always disobey. Disobedience is really the extent of our free will when it comes to the moral law.
Thank you for agreeing that God's commandments are not authoritative, that humans have the ability and responsibility to determine what is right and wrong and that even common sense and courtesy trump God's commandments. But of course I have not agreed with that at all. The commandments themselves are not as rigid as you think of them, they apply differently in different circumstances, not because of human interpretation but because that's God's definition of them. Acts of mercy are not a violation of the Sabbath commandment, by definition, not human determination. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It’s pretty much true. Everything written down DOES have to come via the senses and memory. I don’t see how you can deny that. (Maybe you can quibble on memory, but only in special cases that don’t apply). And the case that any Gospel was written by an eye-witness seems weak, which gives at least one more level of indirection.
quote: A trick - or an accident - switching the barrels, or maybe the water barrels only being used to cover while more supplies were obtained is one possibility. Add in the problems of memory and bias and it is quite possible. Or - if the author was not an eyewitness - it might be a parable taken for reality.
quote: The lifelong is just the sort of exaggeration that can creep into accounts. Whether their complaints were entirely physical (or even genuine) is unknown - if the cures happened at all. The Roman Emperor Vespasian is supposed to have miraculously cured the blind and the lame, too - it’s reported by Tacitus. I don’t believe that either.
quote: They didn’t go down as inerrant until long after they were written. Papias said that Mark’s Gospel got the order of events wrong. The author of Luke was willing to disagree with Mark - and quite possibly Matthew. The main argument hypothetical source Q is that the author of Luke wouldn’t *intentionally* disagree with Matthew as much as he did. Decades after the event leave plenty of time for legends to develop, for confabulation, exaggeration, confusion, for teachings to change and the changed teachings to be put into Jesus’ mouth. The Gospels just are not reliable sources for many things.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's just a bunch of BS. For the gospels to have been taken as truth for two millennia means they were not contradicted by the many who could have. THERE WERE LOTS AND LOTS OF WITNESSES TO JESUS' MIRACULOUS ACTS, LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS, WHO PASSED ON THEIR TESTIMONY TO LOTS AND LOTS OF OTHERS.
And the minor differences of perspective you insinuate but don't describe (by ONE writer?) --ABE: A different order of events????!!!! /abe-- hardly disqualify the general facts --ABE: THE IMPORTANT FACTS, THE TESTIMONY TO THE MIRACLES /ABE-- Are you kidding an accident? A trick? Switching pots? They were huge heavy clay pots by the way, not "barrels" What would possess anyone to try to invent a miracle out of such a thing and try to palm it off on the many witnesses who were there? -- what a bunch of arrogant creeps today's anti-Christians are --, and besides all you are doing is the usual curmudgeonly speculation, you don't know anything, it's all made up. Blech, yuck. Yes, lifelong. The writings went down as "inspired" in the early years if you don't like "inerrant," because they would not have been accepted into the early canon lists without that attestation of inspiration by the vast majority of the churches. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Since we know that they were contradicted - by quite early believers - it is your response that is BS.
quote: Or so you assume. Let us not forget that - using the generally accepted dates - it is entirely possible that none of the Gospels were written before the Jewish revolt brought a devastating war to Judaea. Let us not forget that none of the Gospels cite any sources. Let us not forget that no independent source records even the most obvious miracles that supposedly occurred during Jesus’ life. Let us not forget that most Christians at they time would not even have been born when Jesus lived. Let us not forget that fiction can come to be taken for fact remarkably quickly as Arthur Machen’s story The Bowmen came to be mistaken as fact, as The Angels Of Mons - surely there were many eyewitnesses who could contradict that miracle - yet the story persisted. I could say more, but that seems sufficient.
quote: The differences are quite significant. Enough to convince many scholars that the authors of Luke and Matthew had a common source, rather than Luke incorporating material from Matthew.
quote: I am pointing out things that are likely to happen You are making things up.
quote: It’s not that I don’t like inerrant it’s that they were NOT taken as inerrant in the early years. As for inspired - well why don’t you find out when they got that classification and what it was taken to mean before you start trying to claim that it is significant.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
God expects us to think.
The gift in Genesis 2&3 was the ability to know right from wrong.
Faith writes: God knows that when we think we always disobey. Disobedience is really the extent of our free will when it comes to the moral law. I pity the fool that thinks that is true. How utterly sad that position is.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Modulous writes: Is there any utterance I could make sufficiently absurd that it couldn't be considered evidence? If not, then everything is evidence.
If you claim it to be true, it is evidence. All attestations are evidence... I didn't claim it to be true. Is that what it takes to turn mere words into testimony and attestations, a mere declaration that it is true? Trump is in that case testifying and attesting to lies left and right. I called it an utterance, but when you echoed this back to me it became evidence and an attestation. It isn't. Click on the "Do Nothing Button" (as many times as you like). Evidence?
I accept that the existence of John increases the probability of John's claims being true from the baseline probability of them being true had John not existed. John isn't quality reliable evidence, and then there's a whole diminishing scale of quality and reliability from a Christian perspective (apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, other ancient works, etc.), yet someone is, in your view, giving testimony and attesting to the truth of these words. Why imbue John with more credibility than, say, the Book of Enoch, which is pseudepigrapha for Protestants? I hope it isn't thought that works that say (sic), "I'm writing this to convince you," and, "Many people saw this," and, "Heed my words and you'll achieve eternal salvation," have more credibility than those that don't.
I gave a mathematical argument to this end, which you have not commented on. I understand probability, but the numbers were invented, so the conclusions were, too. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Percy writes: Click on the "Do Nothing Button" (as many times as you like). Evidence? As long as it does nothing when you click on it it is evidence that it does nothing. Should I click on it and it actually does something then that is clear and direct evidence that it is not a Do Nothing button regardless of how it is labeled.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Modulous writes: I assume this is to what Faith is referring. Thanks for the Matthew references. I would still tell Jesus, were he a real person and still alive, that "Thou shalt not commit adultery" only mentions committing, not thinking, and "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mention hate, in your heart or anywhere else. Do Mark, Luke and John echo Matthew's comments? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: I don't think you can make such a blanket statement about all witnesses in all circumstances. And there's nothing particularly difficult about what John or any of the NT writers report of the miracles to suppose error through some sort of mental fog. This fog wasn't a quality I was assigning to particular people. I described it as an aspect of the human perceptual/cognitive system. "Fog" is just shorthand for imprecision, inaccuracy, expectations overwhelming actual perceptions, post event influences, misremembering, crowd influence, etc.
Water turned to wine? How many ways could that be distorted by this supposed mental fog? Do you suppose it really didn't change at all or maybe turned to apple juice? A lifelong lame man walking? A lifelong blind man seeing? Give me a break. I don't believe any parts of these stories ever happened.
The circumstances of Jesus' ministry were electrifying enough to be vividly imprinted on everyone's memory. But insufficiently electrifying to make any impact on the record of history. Paul, an ordinary person who performed no miracles, had a greater impact on the historical record than Jesus.
But the main problem with your argument is that any description that was faulty had dozens or even hundreds of witnesses ready and able to correct it. They're just stories about witnesses. Anyone can write, "Lot's of people saw it." If you believe on faith that lots of people saw something that's fine.
You seem to be imagining a lone witness such as might be the case in a court trial. I'm actually imagining no witnesses, since nothing happened.
The gospels would not have gone down as inerrant unless they passed all these tests. You have faith that the gospels passed these tests. There's no indication that they actually have. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And yet they're not very clear. Jesus had to re-clarify.
It's God's own commentary. He is making clear what the commandments cover. Faith writes:
But they don't agree on what is murder and what is "lawful killing".
All Christians take "kill" to mean murder and always have. Faith writes:
Then they don't seem to have any "meaning" at all. If everybody is automatically guilty, it doesn't matter what the commandments are.
And as I already said we all violate all of them them every day.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Good point. If everybody is automatically guilty, it doesn't matter what the commandments are. Some would argue that everyone intrinsically knows the difference between right and wrong in that it is written on our heart but that we all fall short of carrying out our duty. Thus, The US can justify collateral damage and civilian casualties without calling our government murderers. Any individual or nation can justify whatever they choose to justify. The question is what GOD, if GOD exists (and of course I believe he does and IS ) would likely think of our justification. An authoritarian God may well smite us.Jesus seems to always forgive us. Perhaps the question is what our responsibility is....to be authoritarians in Gods name or to be honest with ourselves and each other. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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