|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: If the messenger believes that the message is true and has great value, that belief alone is evidence of the possible truth and value of the message. Sorry but that is just nuts Phat as well as demonstrably false. Lots and lots of folk believe that some message is true and has great value when in fact the message is plain bollix. All it is evidence of is the fact that the messenger may believe that the message is true and has great value and says absolutely nothing about whether or not there really is any validity or value.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ok if what you say is true how would we ever agree on a value for the message?
And as we will discuss over in the Sproul topic, do any of his messages have any value in today's world? Is there any future for Biblical Christianity? What if they are right and we are in a spiritual war of ideas and don't know it?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: I'll know miracles are real when there's evidence that miracles are real.GDR writes: Modulous isn't saying, nor am I for that matter, that what is written in the Gospels about miracles causes us to KNOW that miracles happened.Percy writes: I'm just going on what you said. You claimed that you will know miracles are real when there is evidence. Both Modulous and I say that the Gospel accounts are evidence. Ergo.... Logic then dictates that I, (and I'll stop speaking for Modulous), know that the miracles are real. I don't think anyone thought you or Modulous was saying that. People look at the evidence of the miraculous accounts in the Gospel and with that evidence choose by faith whether to believe that they accurately reflect what happened or not.
Percy writes:
But you have only decided that they are lies based on further evidence.
Tangle has already addressed this, but I'll add a bit more. A propagandist writes his lies (the Trump era provides us a cornucopia of examples of propagandist lies) with the intent of having them believed, but I don't think we would call the lies' evidence of anything. Someone else repeats the lies, fully and honestly believing them true, but we would not call repeating the lies evidence of anything. Percy writes:
Of course it's about faith, but without the evidence of the Gospel accounts we would nothing to have faith in. It is like the story of a world wide flood. The account of the event is in the Bible. That is evidence, but based on other evidence I don't have belief or faith that the story is an accurate depiction of what happened. Why isn't it enough to have faith that the miracles really happened? Why do you also need to believe there is evidence?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Let’s consider Joseph Smith. We know that he was a con-artist, that his translations were inventions, that the Book of Mormon history is fiction. And there are more negatives there.
Yet, his success as a messenger can’t be denied.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: ok if what you say is true how would we ever agree on a value for the message? You listen to John Locke and test the message against logic, reason and reality but remember that reality always trumps logic or reason.
Phat writes: And as we will discuss over in the Sproul topic, do any of his messages have any value in today's world? They certainly generate cash flow.
Phat writes: Is there any future for Biblical Christianity? If there is to be a future then there can be no future for Biblical Christianity except as a limited cult.
Phat writes: What if they are right and we are in a spiritual war of ideas and don't know it? I can think of no greater waste of time or energy than a spiritual war of ideas.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Or maybe Muhammad who is quoted as saying:
Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has not faith.
The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr. None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Phat writes: This gets back to Modulous argument as I understand it. If the messenger believes that the message is true and has great value, that belief alone is evidence of the possible truth and value of the message. Modulous was actually saying something different. This is from his Message 812:
Modulous in Message 812 writes: Therefore the existence of John is an increase in the probability of Jesus turning water into wine. The maths is rough, but surely it is not mathematically possible for John to have either no impact or negative impact on the probability of the miracle. Negligible? Sure. But not 0. Since evidence is that which increases the probability of a thing, John is evidence of the wine miracle. Modulous is arguing that the existence of the Gospel of John increases the probability of the miracles described therein, and that even if the values of those probabilities happened to be very low, they're still greater than zero.
Look at Paul. Did he get blinded? Did he experience a great change in his life? Did he have integrity? It certainly appears that his message has survived the test of time. If, on the other hand he was selling messages out of the back trunk of his camel, they likely would have long ago been ignored. Paul's message has survived for religious reasons and not as a result of historical analysis.
UNLESS...others used his message for their own dishonest gain. Why do the myths of religion, if myths they be, have to be associated with dishonesty? Where man's yearning for understanding his place and purpose in the universe are involved, hope and yearning win out over facts for many people.
Which gets us back to the integrity of the messengers. Indeterminable, and since the messengers are people, a species not known for perfection, not necessarily the most relevant factor. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes: What if they are right and we are in a spiritual war of ideas and don't know it? jar writes: OK how about a spiritual war of behaviors! I can think of no greater waste of time or energy than a spiritual war of ideas. What if the Biblical Christians are right, there is a personal good and a personal evil and humans are the chess pieces in this cosmic game of brinksmanship? You might say that if this were true the proper response would be to laugh at it. But what if that response itself played into the hands of one of the combatants?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
|
Percy writes: Both Modulous and I say that the Gospel accounts are evidence. Ergo.... Logic then dictates that I, (and I'll stop speaking for Modulous), know that the miracles are real. I think you and Modulous might diverge on the point about "knowing" that the miracles are real. Modulous was working with probabilities. But on the important point you and Modulous are in agreement, that the Gospel accounts represent evidence of miracles. I of course don't agree. Things that happen in the real world leave evidence behind, and the gospel accounts contain not evidence of miracles but stories about people witnessing miracles. True evidence is subject to analysis using the scientific method, and no evidence of that sort is available in the gospels.
Of course it's about faith, but without the evidence of the Gospel accounts we would nothing to have faith in. My message to you would be to have faith in the truth of the gospel accounts. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: OK how about a spiritual war of behaviors! What if the Biblical Christians are right, there is a personal good and a personal evil and humans are the chess pieces in this cosmic game of brinksmanship? You might say that if this were true the proper response would be to laugh at it. But what if that response itself played into the hands of one of the combatants? Again, that is simply utter stupidity. The proper response is to do what Jesus said and laugh at the Biblical Christians. AbE: and laugh at their God and their Satan and sell popcorn to those watching the farce. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MiguelG Member (Idle past 2006 days) Posts: 63 From: Australia Joined:
|
My pardon to the board if I am repeating what has gone before. I would just like to address Faith's initial post regarding a belief in Hell and a theist's (not necessarily just Christians) belief in it as the final destination of all those not in their particular sect. Faith's friend's dilemma is a logical follow-on from his faith in what he has been taught. This is, to me, one of the most heinous traps of religions, more specifically those of the Abrahamic beliefs. They set up a situation where the world is divided between those that burn and those that don't. To people of conscience it causes great angst and worry over the ultimate fate of people they love/like. To people of bigotry it justifies hate and marginalisation of others. To others it spurs them to involve themselves in apologetics and even politics where they van supposedly do 'the most good' and try to save 'souls'. The latter is especially worrisome because the good of secular society plays second fiddle to their specific dogmas. What you end up with are groups that interfere with the implementation of social justice: same-sex marriage, LBGTQI rights, civil rights, the teaching of science, personal biological rights etc.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MiguelG Member (Idle past 2006 days) Posts: 63 From: Australia Joined:
|
Hi Phat. Let's assume what you say is correct - that we are involved as pawns in a "...cosmic game of brinksmanship? ". I wouldn't "laugh" at it. I would consider it a matter of great concern. Firstly, if this was true we would have to divine the nature of the players. Who are they and what are their goals? In other words which theology do we assume is 'real'. Only by doing that can we choose which side to support - or not. Irrespective of the motives and goals of the combatants one has to ask the question: 'Must I/we get involved?' What if we abandon all theisms and their attendant beliefs altogether? Would that play into the hands of one of the combatants? Again it boils down to the question of WHO are these combatants? What evidence supports the choice of 'WHO'? There is an almost infinite variety of nuanced choices. For me, I reject the notion altogether as having no objective evidence, not for any of it. THIS world is the one that matters, to us, to those we love. It is HERE that we make choices of how to build functional, equitable and harmonious societies. We don't need the incoherent, subjective dogmas of a plethora of theistic beliefs in order to accomplish this.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: True evidence is subject to analysis using the scientific method, and no evidence of that sort is available in the gospels. That then is true for all his historical written accounts. Some may have certain physical evidence as well but written accounts by your definition are useless as evidence.
Percy writes: My message to you would be to have faith in the truth of the gospel accounts. You would have to define what you mean by that. Are you referring to the social gospel message or are you referring to the historical veracity of the Gospel accounts?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
|
MiguelG writes: My pardon to the board if I am repeating what has gone before. I would just like to address Faith's initial post regarding a belief in Hell and a theist's (not necessarily just Christians) belief in it as the final destination of all those not in their particular sect. Faith's friend's dilemma is a logical follow-on from his faith in what he has been taught. This is, to me, one of the most heinous traps of religions, more specifically those of the Abrahamic beliefs. They set up a situation where the world is divided between those that burn and those that don't. To people of conscience it causes great angst and worry over the ultimate fate of people they love/like. To people of bigotry it justifies hate and marginalisation of others. To others it spurs them to involve themselves in apologetics and even politics where they van supposedly do 'the most good' and try to save 'souls'. Certainly there are some Christians who believe that the faith is all about where we wind up when this life comes to an end, and that is decided by whether or not one gives ascent to a specific version of Christian doctrine. Scripture actually says that it is about the heart choosing to love our neighbour and even our enemies sacrificially, regardless of our doctrinal beliefs. That is what draws us closer to God. Most of the world outside of North American fundamentalists would be in agreement with that understanding of the Christian faith. Just one example would be, (as I pointed out earlier in this thread), the story of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were pretty much despised by the Jews. My contention is that if Jesus was telling that parable today it would be the parable of the good Muslim.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
|
Including the part of my quote that you left out makes it clear that I was talking about evidence of miracles:
GDR writes: Percy writes:
That then is true for all his historical written accounts. Some may have certain physical evidence as well but written accounts by your definition are useless as evidence. Things that happen in the real world leave evidence behind, and the gospel accounts contain not evidence of miracles but stories about people witnessing miracles. True evidence is subject to analysis using the scientific method, and no evidence of that sort is available in the gospels. Concerning miracles, a supposed physical phenomena, I don't see how hearsay accounts of eyewitnesses is amenable to any scientific analysis. If you want people like me to accept miracles as real world phenomena then we're going to need real world evidence. Right now the evidence for miracles seems to be of the same quality as the evidence for leprechauns, Santa Claus and Bilbo Baggins.
Percy writes: My message to you would be to have faith in the truth of the gospel accounts. You would have to define what you mean by that. Are you referring to the social gospel message or are you referring to the historical veracity of the Gospel accounts? The details of where and how you place your faith is your personal decision. If your decision is to have faith in the historical veracity of the gospel accounts then I endorse your right to your faith. But if your decision is that your faith is backed by evidence that say things about the real world (as opposed to the spiritual world) then such evidence has standard means of evaluation, beginning with the scientific method. --Percy
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024