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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Dogma, by the way, is simply codified Truth. Again Faith, reality shows that is simply an absurdity as well as being totally false. Every religion has it dogma and so you are saying that Muslim Dogma is codified truth. Do you ever think about what you post? Or maybe you mean Faith's dogma is codified truth? So where are these HUGE differences?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Unless I missed something I don't see anything on that list I'd even want to call a miracle, which I regard as something only God could do by suspending the laws of physics. These all sound like demon tricks or manifestations, if the reports are true of course.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: As I said, telling the supernatural from the natural is no harder than telling when you are experiencing something while awake or dreaming. It takes no superpowers at all. Even you could do it.
Really. It's that easy. Like when Mary Magdalene gazed upon the resurrected Jesus and supposed him to be the gardener in John 20:14-15? She knew she was seeing an actual man,... Yes, exactly, she had no idea she was witnessing a miracle. You said Jesus' appearances were miracles. Also, she didn't even recognize Jesus. So much for the ease of recognizing the supernatural.
And you say this as if you have a lot of experience recognizing the supernatural. Pardon me for, well, let's just say you're talking through your hat. I've had a fair amount of experience as a matter of fact,... Oh, yes, of course, you're much better at recognizing the supernatural than Mary Magdalene, if you do say so yourself.
...most of it during the period when I was avidly studying religions and the occult before I became a Christian, including conversations with other people who had had such experiences, in other religions or just spontaneously. There is no confusing any kind of supernatural event, apparition or whatnot, with a purely mental event such as a dream. Sounds like a self-reinforcing delusional community.
The apparition I saw was an impersonation of a mentally disturbed homeless man who had threatened me on the street one day. My best guess is that the man was demon possessed and it was a demonic impersonation that appeared in my room threatening me again. He disappeared in a flash when I invoked Jesus Christ. The hair on the back of my neck was standing on end. And what was your drug of choice that night?
Yes and if you saw an apparition as I did you too would know it was real. Everything I see is real, not an apparition, and not supernatural.
The reason I think I had such experiences is that I was heavily involved in reading about religions and the occult, and even practicing some occultic oracles. That sort of thing will open a person to such experiences. I actually felt the atmosphere around me to be sort of electrically charged at times during that period. Believe me, well no don't bother since you would rather believe your own theories than anything any witness has to say, but I do know the difference between the real physical world and intrusions from some other world, and dreams and other phenomena my own mind produces. And I wasn't even doing drugs. Well, I guess it's progress that even you understand what you're saying sounds drug induced.
And yours is a paragraph full of ignorant prejudice. Sure, Faith, I'm "prejudiced" against things like made up demons. In that case I'm "prejudiced" against leprechauns and Santa Claus, too. It still remains true that what you said is full of nonsense and self-serving unsupported assertions. Even you recognize that the things you're saying are pretty crazy since you have to deny taking drugs. But that's exactly what it sounds like, that drugs have screwed up your mind and now you think demons, angels and apparitions have been your frequent companions.
The reality is that Christians are as "habituated" to their religion as adherents to other religions are to theirs. Some are, but it's not how one becomes a Christian, though people may deceive themselves about that. You have to be born again to be a Christian, whether you grew up in it or converted later as I did. Yeah, you guys are pretty habituated to this "born again" stuff.
How certain you are of your absolutely unevidenced unexperienced purely theoretical prejudices,... Well, that's quite a bit addled. Prejudice is the wrong word, but sticking with your vocabulary choices, how can one be "prejudiced" against the existence of the unevidenced? Things that are real leave evidence behind, and the nonsense you talk about doesn't. Therefore, not real. You next completely screw up your quoting. I'm not going to fix it.
Ah well. See, this discussion SHOULD be over. It should never have been started. You just can't help yourself, can you. Naturally given your history your word means nothing and I will assume you'll be continuing the discussion.
I'm sure there are equally rigid adherents of other religions who judge Christianity. Of course there are. But a careful, honest and literate study should reveal the huge differences. I won't hold my breath. The differences lie in the details and are minimal. All you religionists believe in things for which there is no evidence. Demons, angels, sprites, devas, rituals, liturgies, it's all the basically the same made up stuff. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: "A demon-run superstitious nightmare" seems just as descriptive of Christianity as what came before. You know, I bet the Romans echoed much the same sentiments as you: "Boy, those Greeks, what a superstitious nightmare of a religion they had - we're so much ahead of them what with Jupiter and the rest."
Actually, no. Actually, yes. You're working very hard to miss the point. The Romans didn't adapt the Greek religion unchanged but with new names for the gods. They made lots of changes, but that's not the point. The point is that bad-mouthing other religions has a long history signifying nothing, which is all you're doing. You credulously believe anything bad you hear about another religion, then you post it here.
But I believe you are right that this discussion has been over for some time. I didn't say anything like that. I said you're in parrot-mode repeating baseless assertions over and over again.
The problem is that I keep being drawn to answer further enormities you all post here long after it's over by any reasonable measure. Your judgment is seriously flawed. The discussion isn't over. You yourself might be unable to muster any evidence or meaningful arguments for your position, but the discussion isn't over until you stop responding, and we're years past believing you when you declare a discussion over.
...Islam by the sword... Christianity by the sword, the longbow, the gun, the cannon, the crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, cultural destruction, etc...
By now the anti-Chrsitian forces have been hammering so long at the only true religion they've succeeded in convincing people of all the lies about it that are promoted here. That would be a self-reference.
The Antichrist is on the ascendant. The antichrist is fictional. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: Unless I missed something... You missed something.
I don't see anything on that list I'd even want to call a miracle, which I regard as something only God could do by suspending the laws of physics. These all sound like demon tricks or manifestations, if the reports are true of course. The last sentence of my paragraph was, "Or select any other contemporary miracle you like." --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Percy writes: Faith writes: The Antichrist is on the ascendant. The antichrist is fictional. I think you are most likely wrong there Percy. It seems that if anything could represent the antichrist it is Conservative Evangelical Calvinist Christianity as marketed by Faith (not faith). Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know of any contemporary miracles, but any along the lines you posted would have the same problem of not being evidenced except by witnesses. You insist that Jesus' appearances after the resurrection are not one-time events, and I don't even think they should be classified as miracles myself, but in any case they suffer from the same problem of being evidenced only by witnesses. I thought you were aiming to give us an example of a miracle that had some other kind of evidence, since, as you said, if it occurs in the real world it should have such evidence. What happened to that project?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Antichrist according to the Protestant Reformers is the Pope. Not fictional.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's quite clear that Mary Magdalene didn't have a problem recognizing Jesus because his appearance was a miracle. That's some weird idea of your own. In any case I was talking about the difference between a dream and an apparition. Jesus after the resurrection was no apparition. Where did I say Jesus' appearances were miracles?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: The Antichrist according to the Protestant Reformers is the Pope. Not fictional. While at one time that was true later Protestant Reformers pointed out that the Pope was NOT the anti-Christ. One of the main purposes of the Authorized King James version of the Bible was to purge such utter nonsense from Protestant Christianity.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I think it was Chesterton who wrote about the importance of dogma.quote:
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The Antichrist according to the Protestant Reformers is the Pope. Not fictional. Nowadays, not too many see it that way. Some likely think Obama was an antichrist. Doesn't the interpretation say it is a man from the East? Donald Trump came from NY. He would be a likely candidate in my mind since lots of Christians love him and are swayed by his talk. Lots of books i used to read said that the antichrist would please the Jewish people and stand in the temple proclaiming himself as God. Trump wants to bring back Jerusalem. And I could see him standing in the temple someday and saying that HE brought about peace and unity. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: I don't know of any contemporary miracles,... You need a story that makes sense. You're saying that though millions have observed miracles, not a single one of those miracles occurred during our lifetimes? None are occurring now? You've observed all these supernatural phenomena - are they not miracles? Given the ubiquitousness of cameras and smart phones, why has no supernatural apparition ever been recorded in a video? Wait a minute, of course they've been recorded in videos, how could they not? Let me check Google...yep, sure enough, tons of videos of supernatural apparitions. These aren't miracles? Anyway, here's a YouTube video of five miracles recorded on video. How could you not know about them?
I thought you were aiming to give us an example of a miracle that had some other kind of evidence, since, as you said, if it occurs in the real world it should have such evidence. What happened to that project? Again, you joined a subdiscussion between me and GDR, which is fine, but you haven't bothered to inform yourself about it, so go back to Message 1106 and read the subdiscussion forward. I never proposed "to give us an example of a miracle." I don't believe miracles exist, so it's absurd to think I would ever say such a thing. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: The Antichrist according to the Protestant Reformers is the Pope. Not fictional. The pope is a real person. Of course he's not fictional:
The antichrist is imaginary and does not exist, though you can find images of him, too:
If is of course fully consistent of you to denigrate people and things you don't like. You are a cauldron of hate. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Faith writes: It's quite clear that Mary Magdalene didn't have a problem recognizing Jesus because his appearance was a miracle. Jar's frequent question is appropriate here: "Have you even read the Bible?" It clearly says she thought he was a gardener.
That's some weird idea of your own. Well now you're just lying. I'm just reading the Bible, John 20:14-15:
quote: In any case I was talking about the difference between a dream and an apparition. Jesus after the resurrection was no apparition. Where did I say Jesus' appearances were miracles? You can't seem to make up your mind whether apparitions are miracles or not. Just a few short messages ago you denied awareness of any contemporary miracles, which means you didn't consider the apparitions that appeared to you were miracles. Now you're implying that because Jesus wasn't an apparition that his appearances weren't miracles. Yet that's precisely what you've been implying. This is from your Message 1139 from yesterday, where you first began participating in the subdiscussion between me and GDR:
Faith in Message 1139 writes: As I reminded Faith, Jesus appeared to people after the resurrection time after time, so obviously miracles are not "one time events". Each appearance was a one-time event, Percy, that didn't leave anything but witness evidence. You can't study something that leaves only witness evidence. At least according to you. If you took that evidence seriously you could indeed study it, but you don't. If you didn't think Jesus' appearances were miracles, that was the time to say so. --Percy
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