Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites

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AL-BUKHARI
810 - 870
Islamic Traditionist
Al-Bukhari was a compiler of the Sahib, one of the six canonical collections in Sunni Islam that reported the sayings of Mohammed.Al-Bukhari was born in Bukhara in Central Asia. Beginning with a pilgrimage to Mecca he spent a lifetime to collect information about the Prophet Mohammed. From the some 600,000 traditions he gathered he included only those he deemed completely reliable in his 'al-Jami as-sahih.

In his book, Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography, the Azhar scholar, Dr. Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, says the following: "The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of God said: 'I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message..."' (p. 134, 7th edition).Saudi Scholar, Dr. Muhammad-al-Amin, in his book, The Method of Islamic Law, clearly states: "No infidel [unbeliever] should be left on his land as it is denoted from Muhammad's statement: 'I was commanded to fight the people... (until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger).'"In his book, The Biography of the Apostle, part 4, Ibn Hisham says: "Muhammad sent Khalid Ibn al-Walid to the tribe of the children of Haritha and told him: 'Call them to accept Islam before you fight with them, but if they refuse, fight them.' Khalid told them: 'Accept Islam and spare your life.' They entered Islam by force. He brought them to Muhammad. Muhammad said to them: 'Had you not accepted Islam I would have cast your heads under your feet," (p.134).Dr. 'Afifi Abdul-Fahah, in his book, The Spirit of Islamic Religion, writes: "Islam has approved war so that the Word of God becomes supreme. This is war for the cause of God (Holy War)," (p.382), and "Islamic law demands that before Muslims start fighting infidels (unbelievers), they first deliver the message of Islam to them. It was proven that the prophet never fought people before he called them to embrace Islam first," (p. 384).Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, in his writings, states: "When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, God ordered him to fight those who fought him only. Then when the Chapter of Repentance was revealed, God commanded His prophet to fight anyone who did not become a Muslim from among the Arabs, whether (that person) fought him or not."The Lights of Revelation, a commentary on the Qur'an declares: "Fight Jews and Christians because they violated the origin of their faith and they do not believe in the religion of the truth, namely Islam, which abrogated all other religions. Fight them...The Ordinances of the Qur'an (part 2, p. 50) declares: "The apostle of God killed and captured (many) of the people of the Book [Christians and Jews] until some of them embraced Islam..."The Book of the Islamic State by Taqiy alDin, states: "The foreign policy of Islamic states must be to carry the Islamic mission to the world by way of holy war. This process has been established through the course of the ages... This process has never been changed at all. The apostle Muhammad, from the time he founded the state in the city Yathrib, prepared an army and began holy war to remove the physical barriers which hinder the spread of Islam," (pps.112-113).

"...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke 22:36)

He intended to bring strife to Judaea"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

He encouraged his followers to see martyrdom
"....he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39

He insisted that all who did not follow him were his enemies
"He that is not with me is against me..." Matthew 12:30

He even incited his followers to murder those who did not follow him
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27

I'll let you know right now that I think that the answer is "no". so don't waste your time attacking the individual quotes.

Let us go to the Quran and see what it says about how to handle nonbelievers, including the small portion YOU took out of context in rebuttal, and then I would like to hear you explain how the message in the Quran should be taken differently than it is plainly written...1) FIGHTING SHOULD NOT BE STARTED BY MUSLIMS, AND PEACE ALLOWED FOR THOSE WHO DESIST (except the initial oppressors):

002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities (also translated as do not exceed limits). Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
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008.019 If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).
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008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------2) THE FULL SECTION FROM WHICH YOU TOOK A PIECE OUT OF CONTEXT (showing that in context it is not for a global assault on pagans, and rather quite specific, particularly the ones who assaulted him first in the Holy Land):quote:
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009.001 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
009.002 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
009.003 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
009.004 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
+++ Your excerpt+++ 009.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.006 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
009.007 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
009.008 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
009.009 They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
009.010 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
009.011 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
009.012 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
009.013 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers(Wow, in context that little piece you quoted just doesn't look the same does it?)

Pertaining to the Infidels"But when the sacred months elapse, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent and establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Surah 9:5).How did muslim scholars and chroniclers interpret this verse in order to understand what Muhammad did after the conquest of Mecca and its occupation?The JalalanIn this commentary, which was published by the Azhar in 1983 (page 153), the authors say decisively,"The chapter of Repentance was revealed to raise the level of security which the infidels enjoyed because Muhammad had earlier made a covenant with them not to kill them. After that, this verse was given (9:5) in order to free God and Muhammad from any covenant with the infidels. It gives them four months in which they will be protected, but by the end of the four months (the end of the grace period), the order comes: Kill the infidels wherever you find them. Capture them, besiege them in their castles and fortresses until they are forced to accept Islam or be killed."As you see, this verse was inspired in order to free Muhammad (and God) from any peaceful and protective covenant which Muhammad made with the people of Mecca, as if the covenant were shameful behavior from which Muhammad (and his God) must free themselves. Nothing remains after that, except the pledge of war and massacre, as Ibn Hisham says later.

Oh yeah, and as far as this "scholar's" interpretation...quote:
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As you see, this verse was inspired in order to free Muhammad (and God) from any peaceful and protective covenant which Muhammad made with the people of Mecca, as if the covenant were shameful behavior from which Muhammad (and his God) must free themselves. Nothing remains after that, except the pledge of war and massacre, as Ibn Hisham says later.
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Take a look at the whole passage and in context. The point of the passage is that he was attacked first and forced out... He was oppressed. Thus this section was dealing with how he was to deal with those that had already oppressed him IN THAT AREA!

(Like the whole religion hangs on that one piece regarding a specific time and place?).

And even with those that were pagan then as long as they did not attack and acted in charity and at least listened to his words, then they would be given safe passage out (check out 009.006). A bit condescending I suppose, but it's not the call to global control you made it out to be.

It took Christians about 1700 years for them to get inspired to create a country based on equality. I think one of the main reasons it took such a long time, eventhough teachings of equality are foundational in Christianity in regards to Adam and Eve, is because equality requires an understanding of religion as being generically the same with some variation, in stead of an exclusivist hierarchal understanding, as one being superior to another. Religion basicly being a part of human nature like arms and legs are, and so if you consider the one religion superior to another, then it becomes harder to consider people as equal.

Christianity, Jesus, is largely incorporated into Islam, as are all the Jewish prophets. This is why Islamic countries have generally, over all the years, not just the last few, been comparitively tolerant of Christianity and Judaism. Of course comparitive tolerance is still apart from full tolerance.

The terrorists didn't much destroy the great buildings, they killed several thousand people. How can you be so confused to mention the loss of some symbol of greatness, and forget to mention the loss of some thousands of lives? I think it's mistaken to view the killing as some kind of means to achieve an end, or collateral damage, the killing is the end meant to be achieved.

I guess basicly these terrorists read every word in terms of whether or not it allows to kill or not to kill. If it would say love thy neighbour, then it would be interpreted as kill everyone who doesn't apparently love their neighbour. When Jesus says love your enemy, then it would be interpreted as kill your enemy so that they will be saved from sin. As before Jesus is incorporated into Islam, so the terrorists also read much the same words as you.

It's a ridiculous myth that it's all the work of just a few powerful evil terrorists. A great share of the Muslim population takes parts in the sins of the terrorists with sympathy, because killing people like all sins, are tempting to take part in of course. I don't think it's Christianity which protects you from that sin much. If that's your only protection then you have very little protection to withstand the temptation to go out and kill every Muslim in a tit for tat frenzy.

So to address your original hypothesis, fundamentalist religion is a high risk attitude toward religion which tends to enslave people to it. It's not right to say fundamentalist Islam is a direct opposite of fundamentalist Christianity, because obviously they belong to the same fundamentalist class of religion.

Okay Buz,
First, if you want to quote the Qur'an, please cite also which translation you quote. Unlike Jesus worshippers, Muslims have the authentic Arabic text of our holy book, and all translations must be referred to the original Arabic to avoid distortions.

The Prophet do not speak in the Qur'an. It is God speaking in the Qur'an.

I'll see if you got your readings correct. First
Fight and slay the pagans (i.e. infidels) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

But when the sacred months elapse, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent and establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Surah 9:5).

This is the actual verse
9:5 Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadin fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemunYUSUFALI But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Emphasis mine. You [purposely?] left out 'and strive with might and main (wayasAAawna) for mischief (fasadan) through the land'. Other translators translate 'fasadan' to 'horrendous crimes'[Khalifa] and 'corruption'[Pickthal]. So it's only applicable to those who attack Muslims (refer my earlier post, violence only for defensive actions) AND does serious crimes.

Next, this quote
I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message...."DOES NOT come from the Qur'an. It was a hadith (saying attributed to the Prophet) narrated by Abu Hurayrah. The hadith had a lower status than Qur'anic verses, because, unlike the Qur'an, many hadith are fake. That one is generally considered strongly authentic, since it was recorded in Bukhari and Muslim's collection of hadith. As a point of reference, I myself do not believe most of the hadith, for authenticity reasons. So I am in no position to defend that hadith you quote.

Buz statement
The above info is from the book, "Behind the Veil" By Abd El Schafi, an excellent source if reliable information on Islam, especially since everything in this book is derived from Islamic sources. The book is full of quotes from both contemporary and ancient Islamic scholars and leaders.Andya response:
From the name of the author, I can tell that your source is not a Muslim. Why? Muslims sometimes use the name 'Abd (servant)'+ one of God's 99 names, like 'Abd Allah/Abdullah', 'Abdur-Rahim', 'Abdul-Jabbar'. And 'al-Schafi (spelling?}' is not among the 99 names. Muslims do not use the name 'Abd' except followed by one of God's names. So I conclude that the author is not a Muslim.

I'm talking about the real effects of beliefs and not the apparently intended effects. It seems you are saying that apparently unintended effects of beliefs are not effects of the beliefs, which is a false line of argument.

If some belief says love thy neighbour, and someone was overwhelmingly influenced by such a belief, then that does not mean this person would actually love their neighbour. On the contrary, it is terribly difficult to attach any meaningful emotion to a belief.

To love your neighbour solely on account of a few words in a book which say so, is trying to squeeze a lot of emotion through a very small hole.

As you know equality is in the US declaration of independence, hardly a communist nation. Is your disbelief in equality particularly linked to your belief in your religion as the best, like I said, or is it more linked to your belief in freedom?

It's a matter of faith. How can you be sure that your Bible is true, despite the errors that start from the first page?

Anyway, this sermon makes a good description of 'fasad (mischief)' as Muslims understand it. Quoting from thereThe Qur?anic term for corruption is al-Fasad. It means spoiling the order, disturbing the balance of justice by greed, self-interest, deception and double talk. The Qur'an has used this word about 50 times. Al-Fasad could be in morals, in values, in social system, in family system, in educational system, in economics, in politics or in human relations in general.

Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts. Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.But those who break the Covenant of Allah, after having plighted their word thereto, and cut asunder those things which Allah has commanded to be joined, and work mischief in the land, on them is the Curse; for them is the terrible Home!

Your understanding is wrong on two counts:
1. Hadith is never regarded equal to Qur'an, they were always subordinate. If a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, then the hadith will be regarded as false.

Well, the author was not a Muslim but he tried to convince people that he's one by using the name Abd El Schafi. His fake name might not fool Muslims but non-Muslims might think that he was a Muslim, and an authority at that. Maybe you yourself fell for it?

Abu `Abd Allah al-Shafi`i
Abu `Abd Allah al-Shafi`i, Muhammad ibn al-Qasim, Abu `Abd Allah al-Asbahani, known as al-Shafi`i (d. 381). He is included by Ibn `Asakir among the direct students of al-Ash`ari. The hadith master Abu Nu`aym mentioned that he authored many works in the foundations of religion, jurisprudence, and legal rulings.

I find this website largely informational if you want to know something about my beliefs: Home | www.free-minds.org

What is Difference between Islam and Sunni or Shia faiths?If you would like to know some highlights of major differences between Islam (the unknown and unpracticed system), and the Sunni or Shia faiths (highly popular amongst 1.2Bn people), then see the following points: