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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I'd be asking the priest how he did it. And I'd be examining the YouTube videos for clues. Have you heard of the Scientific Method at all?
If a priest said 'fly up to heaven' and the Firth of Forth Bridge sprouted two thousand foot wings and flew off into the sunset, scatterring trains, cars and people on its way, whilst whistelling Halleluya you'd still be shaking your head saying, 'no miracle, no sir.'
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You're a fine one to talk. You deny that the Flood was a miracle, don't you? You're the biggest miracle-denier on EvC.
Couldn't be because there is an omnipotent intelligence who created the physical universe and can use it however He wants.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Your quotes confirm what I said: "appears inexplicable", ""attributed to a divine agency", "believed to be caused by God", etc. No mention at all of impossibility, just unfounded assumptions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
We need something to tie the cherubs and the bearded man to reality. Suggest a series of experiments.
What more scientific evidence do you require? I can give you anyting you ask for - what will it take?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No doubt reality does extend beyond our current ability to define it. That's why there are still unanswered questions. But we did figure out flashlights eventually. Is there any reason to think there is something we can never figure out?
The problem is if we limit reality to things we can explain or describe. Reality may well extend beyond our ability to define.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You're wrong. It didn't leave the evidence that it should have. All of the available evidence shows that the Flood didn't happen.
Is there some reason the Flood has to be a miracle? Seems to me it left clear physical evidence... Faith writes:
Answers In Genesis says:
... creationists don't treat it as a miracle...quote:Is it still fun being wrong ALL of the time, or do you ever get tired of it? Faith writes:
And fail dismally.
... they try to explain it by physical events.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics?
We ask the priest to do it again with London bridge. This time the scientist have every bit of equipment imaginable. It all checks out.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop and think about that. How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding?
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding. Phat writes:
On the contrary, as I've told you many times, I often wish that I didn't have to take responsibility for my own fate.
It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You keep leaving out important words in the definitions that you quote. "An event that APPEARS inexplicable by the laws of nature", not IS inexplicable by the laws of nature - "is HELD to be supernatural", not IS supernatural. "ATTRIBUTED to a divine agency", not "CAUSED by a divine agency". breaking natural/scientific laws=impossible A miracle is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power. It is possible that every single attribution is wrong but that isn't the issue. Events are ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power because somebody THINKS it's breaking natural/scientific laws, not because it is. An obvious example is an image of Jesus on a piece of toast. Some people THINK it's impossible for it to happen naturally, so they call it a miracle. Others call it pareidolia.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I can keep correcting you as often as you keep being wrong about it. No. I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.
Some are just afraid of the implications.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I'm not demanding absolute proof. On the contrary, I'm asking for the evidence that any science-minded person would ask for. You claim to have provided it, just like Faith claims to have provided evidence for the Flood but you don't seem to understand that every "answer" produces more questions. You don't get to stop and say, "This is The Answer™." You can't just insert God here.
Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm not. You admit yourself that you don't have a reason, that it's just a belief. I'm saying that there's no reason to think YOUR belief is "more correct" than somebody else's.
There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause.
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Maybe there is. But how do we know which things we can't figure out unless we try to figure them out?
There is surely more than one thing that we may never figure out.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
It's the same as the distinction between "the Pentateuch was written by Moses" and "The Pentateuch is ATTERIBUTED to Moses." I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention." It's the same as the distinction between "Christmas gifts are brought by Santa" and "Christmas gifts are ATTERIBUTED to Santa."
Percy writes:
A flashlight is a miracle to people who don't know how it works.
... for instance where you say that all that is necessary for "something to be CALLED a 'miracle'" is "ignorance of the cause," which doesn't sound like much of a miracle.
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