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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All I am saying is that communal ownership is impractical in today's world for someone living in the United States...unless they and a bunch of "true believers" want to go off and start a commune similar to what Truthlover did.
The basic principle is sound--I have no argument with it nor am I weaseling out of anything. As I have said before, I could always give more and do more...but I am not naive enough to sell everything I have and skip through skid row handing out stuff. I would end up living right there with them...which may be what you see yourself doing. For an atheist, you may make it to Heaven quicker than either Faith or myself....but I think you simply take our Biblical Principles and turn them around on us to win an argument that you yourself only idealistically comprehend....Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
As I have said, I'm frustrated by the contempt that you have for your own Biblical Principles. Faith openly denies what the Bible says. I'm just waiting for the cock to crow three times. ....but I think you simply take our Biblical Principles and turn them around on us....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2
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I aasked this:
quote: Jaywill responded:
quote: So, there are 2 possibilities: They were THE exceptions or part of many exceptions? I asked:
quote: Jaywill responded:
quote: So, it was not only a voluntary participation(in all possessions being made part of a collective community) and based on no rules set by any apostle(s)? When you ask me if "some had freedom to keep a portion or perhaps all as their own if they did not have the faith to participate" because that was "the tone of his (Peter's) rebuke of the couple", then I have to respond with a _no_. No. (Granted, my answer depends on what you mean by "some". There was some mark of a community member I suppose. Do you care to clarify? I am assuming you are referring to the "Christian" community of the day, whatever that meant, exactly. I will tell you what I think about Peter's tone,when he says, "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?" But NOT NOW. Later in this response. I said:
quote: Jaywill responded:
quote: The Mormons know who pays their tithes, and they aren't part of the United States government. Mitt Romney was a member in good standing, so the media assumed he paid his tithes. There can be something of a religious "government" within a government. Just like there was Zionist MOVEMENT while there was no Israel. But there were Zionist Jews still living in Ottoman Palestine (and the later British Palestine). And there could have been an early Christian movement that desired some sort of sovereign temporal power. Was the (Biblical period) nation Israel "worldly"? Just what is "sacred" or "profane" when we are talking about the period when the very Apostles lived? Especially, when they are part of a movement (whatever exactly its goals were)? I said:
quote: Jaywill said:
quote: Back to the "tone" of Peter, which you brought up earlier.
quote: It sounds like the tone of a judge telling somebody that "It is too late to make excuses" "You knew what you were doing" "Nobody made you do it" "Nothing you say or do now makes a difference" It sounds like the voice of somebody with the power of a governmental authority to me. (Naturally, people will say, "Oh no, it wasn't a government, it was God who gave him the power") You responded:
quote: Where do you get this idea that "He said that they had every right to withhold what they did" from? From this? (Acts 5:4 again)
quote: He said that they knew what they were doing: AT THE TIME THEY DID WHAT THEY DID and NOW IT IS TOO LATE. (The present situation, to Peter and the guilty couple(in Acts 5:3-10), was ex post facto relative to the time of the holy crime) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA, to jaywill writes: ALL meaning the believers. Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club. It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that. What does make sense is being punished for lying and trying to stay in the club...having one's cake and eating it too. Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING?You believe that the message teaches the necessity of everyone giving 100% because you like the idea of a message (socialism) without the need of a messenger(Jesus or religion) and would argue that everyone needs to belong to this club as a gesture of good intentions for fellow humanity. I am arguing that anyone should have the right to opt out of any club---be it "believers" or be it "socialists" or be it "secular humanists" at any time. The lie is in claiming to belong in the club without giving 100%. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that. The passage merely says they had control over what they gave so they could have given part and the worst would have been that they'd have had to feel stingy in the context of the more generous givers, which is why they lied. But they didn't have to give it all and they didn't have to lie, just put up with a bruise to their ego.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: I take it by inference from the scripture. There was a definite group of people known as "the believers".
I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that. Acts 4:32 writes: Thus to be a "believer" meant to give up private ownership. I would argue that anyone had a right to hold on to whatever they wanted but that in so doing they would not be part of the group since scripture makes clear the behavior of the group. The sin was in trying to hold on and lying about it in order to remain in the group. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. I feel that many try and interpret this in light of a modern context of believers who are not expected to give all that they own to the cause. Ringo would argue otherwise, but he loves the idea of socialism anyway.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They would not have been any less believers if they'd just not lied about wanting to give less than the whole price of their property. As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Careful, you may have an inkling of understanding there. By their fruits ye shall know them. Maybe thieves and liars aren't really believers at all. Maybe hateful, screaming harpies aren't really believers either. As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
He claims that he believes in "the message"...but sees no way to "know" Jesus or whether that is even important. In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community. Christianity, as mentioned in Acts, was for the poor. They could give up all that they had without losing any material of value. Were I to give up the modest possessions which I now have, I doubt if I would have any guarantee of gaining anything of greater value by communing with society...or any current church, for that matter. ringo argues that if I am to call myself a believer I should trust the message. My response is that perhaps I am not a believer in the sense of how Acts defines a believer.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Just to be clear, it doesn't say that. It may be true but it doesn't say that. Peter might have been wearing argyle socks too but it doesn't say that either, so it doesn't seem like a good thing to hang your point on.
Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club. Phat writes:
It would make no sense for God to have us kill His Son in order to be forgiven for lusting after our neighbour's ox, either. A lot of your theology doesn't make sense. On more thing needn't be a deal-breaker. It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Not even if I put a brick on my Shift key? Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer. Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what the rich man said to Jesus. In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community. But it isn't about trusting people. In your case, it should be about trusting God. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Fixed. I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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