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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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So obviously there are way more criteria to getting into heaven than just the name of Jesus. Or, the Name of Jesus has depths to it way beyond a mere name. His entire character is in His name. I don't mean to short shrift this conversation, I hope to come back to it later, but I can't finish it right now. I just saw that last sentence and wanted to answer it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's what I've been trying to tell Phat for years. "Believing" in Jesus is far more than just believing that He existed. Or, the Name of Jesus has depths to it way beyond a mere name.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Absolutely but I think that it goes beyond that. The Gospels as in the sheep and goats of Matthew 25 are very clear. It is about hearts that genuinely love and are prepared to love sacrificially whether we are Christian or not. That's what I've been trying to tell Phat for years. "Believing" in Jesus is far more than just believing that He existed. The following is a direct quote from CS Lewis’ book The Last Battle from the Narnia series. In it Aslan, (the lion), is the Jesus figure and Tash represents the personification of evil. This passage is told by Emeth who has always served Tash with a loving heart believing that Tash and Aslan were of the same nature and that they both represented righteousness. He has gone from Narnia into what is metaphorically the world that represents the renewal of all things.
quote: My point is that you can serve God through Jesus without having given intellectual ascent to their divinity. It also points out that you can serve evil in the name of Jesus. In Matthew 12 Jesus says the following. quote: The Holy Spirit is that still small voice of God that speaks through our conscience. We blaspheme the spirit when we claim that which is evil to be good or claiming that which is good to be evil. I suggest that by understanding the Bible in such a way that has God ordering genocide and calling it good, or when we talk about the rejection of our neighbours of other faiths etc, that we just might be on the wrong side of the point that Jesus makes in Matthew 12.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Two fictional books don't make a non-fictional book.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
And yet Matthew 12 sounds very much like the God who orders genocide, who decides arbitrarily what is good and what is evil. I suggest that by understanding the Bible in such a way that has God ordering genocide and calling it good, or when we talk about the rejection of our neighbours of other faiths etc, that we just might be on the wrong side of the point that Jesus makes in Matthew 12.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes:
I did not say that unbelievers can be Christians. If you do not believe in God, and in Jesus as the embodiment of God, then you aren't a Christian. Now I know for sure you share the heresy of Robert Schuller, this idea that people can be Christians who never heard of Christ or even reject Him though they've heard of Him. However, "there is no other NAME under heaven by which we must be saved" than Jesus Christ, so nobody can be a Christian without knowing His name and believing in Him. Oh I'm sure all kinds of unbelievers are very nice people, but that doesn't make them Christians. My point was that non-Christians can lead lives that are pleasing to God, and Christians can lead lives that are displeasing to God. You continuously seem to focus on who is saved and who isn't. That is not the point of Jesus message. The message is that we are called to be members of "God's Kingdom" by serving Him, which of course means serving Him by using the gift of love, and living our lives reflecting that love into all of His creation. The Bible calls us as Christians to prayerfully engage with God. As Psalm 37:4 tells us, we are to pray that our hearts will desire what His heart desires. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes: You sound like Pilate. What is truth. I believe that there actually is an objective truth in answer to your question; however as humans we can only come up with subjective conclusions. And yet Matthew 12 sounds very much like the God who orders genocide, who decides arbitrarily what is good and what is evil. With our free will God has given us an open future as individuals to answer that question and the freedom to lead our lives in accordance with our answer. I seems to me that at one end we have the Golden Rule — do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The other end might be looking out for number one or maybe if it feels good do it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You and I have a different idea of what "objective" means. What you call objective, I would call absolute - and I agree that IF there is absolute truth, we can not discover it. What I call objective is more like a consensus based on evidence. With no evidence, no objectivity is possible.
I believe that there actually is an objective truth in answer to your question; however as humans we can only come up with subjective conclusions. GDR writes:
Yes, I agree that we all have an internal conflict between two evolutionary "goals" - individual survival and group survival. But that has nothing to do with what you quoted. I seems to me that at one end we have the Golden Rule — do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The other end might be looking out for number one or maybe if it feels good do it. I said that Matthew 12 seems to agree more with the Old Testament God than with your sanitized God who can do no wrong.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I hate when you're right. Absolute is the correct term and objective is not.
You and I have a different idea of what "objective" means. What you call objective, I would call absolute - and I agree that IF there is absolute truth, we can not discover it. What I call objective is more like a consensus based on evidence. With no evidence, no objectivity is possible. ringo writes: Yes, I agree that we all have an internal conflict between two evolutionary "goals" - individual survival and group survival. But that has nothing to do with what you quoted.I said that Matthew 12 seems to agree more with the Old Testament God than with your sanitized God who can do no wrong. I don't see it that way. Firstly I'd like to say that there is also considerable evidence in the OT of a loving god, although there are accounts of a vengeful god as well. As I have said before I believe that through the Bible we have a progressive revelation of God climaxing in Jesus where we can see Him fully. I'll quote C S Lewis again from "The Great Divorce" this time. quote:As I said before we blaspheme the Holy Spirit by calling good evil and/or evil good. When we make that choice we are essentially rejecting life with God and making our own choice of hell. Matthew 12 is saying that there won't be forgiveness. How can there be forgiveness if we have chosen evil as good and see no need for forgiveness. We have been given free will where we can choose between good and evil leading ultimately to choosing between life with God, and life away from GodHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Yes, so the overall picture is of a flighty God.
Firstly I'd like to say that there is also considerable evidence in the OT of a loving god, although there are accounts of a vengeful god as well. GDR writes:
What you call "progressive revelation" I would call progressive sanitization.
As I have said before I believe that through the Bible we have a progressive revelation of God climaxing in Jesus where we can see Him fully. C.S. Lewis writes:
I think that is one of the stupidest statements ever made in the English language. Nobody would make that choice.
All that are in Hell, choose it. GDR writes:
It's more like disagreeing with God about what's good and what's evil. The God of the Bible can't make up His own mind about what's good and what's evil. Any human being can see that allowing a place like Hell to even exist is evil.
As I said before we blaspheme the Holy Spirit by calling good evil and/or evil good. GDR writes:
Which is why I say that Matthew 12 reflects the Old Testament. A loving God would forgive. A loving parent forgives whether the child wants forgiveness or not. Matthew 12 is saying that there won't be forgiveness.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I did not say that unbelievers can be Christians. If you do not believe in God, and in Jesus as the embodiment of God, then you aren't a Christian. True, you didn't say unbelievers can be Christians. What you said was
Maybe Vimesey actually has Christ in his heart without actually giving intellectual ascent to Christianity. I would of course suoppose that if someone "has Christ in his heart" he has to be a Christian, but apparently you are making a distinction. Perhaps not much of a distinction though. Sounds like you might put vimesey above a lot of Christians anyway, even as more favored by God?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
My point was that non-Christians can lead lives that are pleasing to God, and Christians can lead lives that are displeasing to God. Well, actually they can't, according to scripture: "Without faith you cannot please God" says the scripture.
You continuously seem to focus on who is saved and who isn't. That is not the point of Jesus message. Salvation is the foundation of the Christian life. Without it there is no Christian life at all. Without salvation there is no Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit there is no Christian love and no real knowledge of Christ Himself. It was Jesus himself who said we must be born again, and what is that but the transformation by a new birth that comes from heaven and changes us, which is what salvation is. He also said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost." and "I came to save sinners, not the righteous," and quoted Isaiah 61 to the effect that He came "to set the captives free, to give the oil of gladness for mourning," etc etc etc. Was it Christ or Paul who said He came to be a "ransom for many?" Lots there from Jesus Himself about our need to be saved and His mission to save us. But you keep sounding like we aren't to expect to receive anything from Christ except the ability to love others, it would be selfish of us to focus on our own salvation. Yet without salvation from sin we are unable to communicate with God and unable to have any of that love you keep talking about.
The message is that we are called to be members of "God's Kingdom" by serving Him, which of course means serving Him by using the gift of love, and living our lives reflecting that love into all of His creation. Absolutely. Though we also must have other gifts, such as the gift of wisdom and the gift of prophecy which means knowing God's heart, and the gift of being salt which stems the natural corruptions of the fallen world and the gift of giving light which shines in the darkness of fallenness. But if we aren't saved, meaning if our sins are not forgiven, if we are still fallen creatures, then we are still selfish and blind to the things of God and can't offer any of that. We have to be regenerated by Him to be fit for His kingdom. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit" the Kingdom of God.
The Bible calls us as Christians to prayerfully engage with God. As Psalm 37:4 tells us, we are to pray that our hearts will desire what His heart desires. Absolutely. You seem to think that's possible without the radical transformation which is salvation. It's not. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Faith writes: Salvation is the foundation of the Christian life. Without it there is no Christian life at all. Without salvation there is no Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit there is no Christian love and no real knowledge of Christ Himself. This seems a strange notion to hold. What if absolute proof came about tomorrow - showing that God did not exist and the Bible is just wrong and the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and all if it was simply made up. Would you no longer treat others the way you want to be treated? What if GDR would still treat others the way GDR wants to be treated anyway?What if an atheist would still treat others the way that atheist wants to be treated anyway? Does that make GDR and/or the atheist stronger in their faith to follow Jesus' message than you are?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: Are any of us more favored than any others? I do know that many of us behave better than others...whether they are "saved" or not. Stile certainly behaves better than many Christians here at this forum. Sounds like you might put vimesey above a lot of Christians anyway, even as more favored by God?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: What if it were true? Would you do anything different than you do now? Would you accept that you were a sinner and ask God into your heart? Or would you simply say "thats cool too!" What if absolute proof came about tomorrow - showing that God did not exist and the Bible is just wrong and the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and all if it was simply made up. Just being hypothetical. You are one of my favorites here. Your arguments make a lot of sense. I have a question, though. If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there? As an added hypothetical...how would one change course? Simply by believing? By doing more good things? By joining a cult? What would you do?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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