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Author | Topic: Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
And what is the most supernatural aspect of the earth, the sun, animals, plants and people in your opinion? These are also all created by God, just like the Bible was. The above may be true, but not verifiable for use in substantiating the supernatural nature of either the Quran or the Bible as the Bibical prophecies are.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Yeah, such a thing could never happen in Christianity. All the Christians I know give all their worldly goods away and live in communes, like the Epistles say the should. The above benevolence was strictly on a voluntary basis. The early church was under heavy persecution and this worked well. It never worked well for a permanent setup. The Biblical account never even said it was advocated on a large scale. It simply stated that that's what they did. That the fundamentalistic Biblical Christian church is the most benevolent people of the planet in late centuries and that that influence has highly influenced the benevolence of our highly protestant Christian based nation shows that the principle of sharing has been alive and well in the evangelical fundamentalist community. Many wealthy Christians like C.T. Studd of England and LeTorneau of the US gave a large percentage of their wealth away. Our tax system is designed to encourage giving also. Compare all this to what fundie Islamic nations do for the people of the world. The policy of Islam has been to export terror and hate, not benevolence. Most, if not all of the 9/11 19 were Saudi Muslims. Much of our giving goes to nations, including Muslim and pagan nations, though we are majority Christian.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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Buz:---------- 4. The books of the Bible were all written many centuries before the Quran, so the Bible should trump the Quran where Mideast historical data is contradictory between the two books. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andya: Again, show me the contradictory data. Open a new thread. I don't have time for a new thread now. Since this would be conducive to this thread topic, I'll list the following: 1. Sura 11:42, 43 states that one of Noah's sons refused to go into the ark and drowned. The Bible (Genesis 7:1, 7, 13 states that Noah's three sons all entered the ark and were saved from the flood. 2. Sura 11:44 states that the ark came to rest on the hills of Judea whereas the Bible has it resting on the hills of Aarat in Turkey. 3. Abraham's fathers name was Azar. Sura 6:74. According to the Bible, the name was Terah. 4. Quran has Abraham living and worshipping at Mecca whereas the Bible has him in Hebron 5. Sura 37: 100 - 112. Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael. Bible say it was Isaac. 6. Sura 21: 68-69 and 9:69 Quran has Abraham thrown into a fire by Nimrod. How could this be when according to the Bible, Nimrod lived many centuries before Abraham? 7. He miss-names Biblical people like Potiphar, Goliath, Korah, Saul, Enoch, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, and Jonah. 8. He has Moses being adopted by Pharoah's wife rather than his daughter. 9. He has the Biblical flood taking place in Moses's time. Sura 7:136 and 7:59 Others can be cited, but the above should be sufficient for substantiation of my point. Mohammed, in numerous sunas would appeal to the Bible to substantiate some of what he was teaching since the Bible was older so he did recognize the Bible as authority, but got a number of things wrong.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
quote: Xianity, as taught and practiced by God, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus (esp when in Revelations: the story about the second and longer part of his life), paul and the authors of the Bible, regarded by the vast majority of Xian scholars and priests for doctrine in Xianity is reflected by the RC and evangelicals rather than the nice sounding stuff Buzsaw ascribes to Xianity here. What is the difference between the two statements above? You admit you are an unknown minority, sticking to the REAL Xianity that others reject. So do they! Once upon a time there was ONLY RC. What we have right now in Islam (thanks to our intervention in Islamic countries) is something very similar. We have helped concentrate power in Sunnis and Shias, but this is not to say no others versions exist, even in nations ruled by Sunni or Shia. Is it valid for a historian to look to the past and say at one time RC ruled the entire Xian thinking and so nothing good could come of it, and if some other Xians came along, then eventually they would show their real RC selves? If not, then how can you do this now with Islam? And as it is, even Shias and Sunnis do not have to believe in the specific dictates you posted. These forms make contradictory interpretations POSSIBLE (which certain leaders have taken advantage of), but not NECESSARY. Do you know any Islamic person? I know people that are nonsunni and nonshiite, and I know people that are Shiite. Interestingly enough these shiites are of a "denomination" of shia that do NOT ascribe to the tenets you say they must! Currently I have a friend that is staying in an Islamic country, with a family of a local shia cleric. That friend is a pagan. I mean a real, many gods pagan. That person gets along fine with all of them. There is a bit of culture shock (esp.with toilet facilities), but no problems religion wise... where is your stereotype of people in "Islamland"? You also badmouth Palestinians as an example of Islamic evil, yet you always miss that there are Xian Palestinians living right along side Muslim Palestinians... both being oppressed by Israelis. How do Xians and Muslims coexist there now, and how have they done so for a while? Why must Islam conform to the one flavor you ascribe, when Xianity does not? It just makes no sense! And you still have not answered my questions regarding the clear proscriptions against religious intolerance stated in the Quran. Why can't a Muslim (shia or sunni) believe contradictions between Sunna and Quran are trumped by Quran? Ahem... IN REALITY, many do. Currently there are many Islamic countries enslaved by authoritarian governments which use the Islamic religion as their source of power. Do you see me question this? It is a terrible state of affairs. But that does not mean that all Muslims believe in this, or must believe in this. But let's say your accusations are right. Then what is the solution we MUST use for the above mentioned problem? If no Muslim can believe other than you claim, then isn't the only solution conversion or extermination of all Muslims? If not, what is? And finally, one day YOU will let down your sheep clothing, right? In the end times? One day I must become your enemy just because I am not your religion, right? So what makes you better than them? Why should the entire secular world not be equally worried about both of your intolerant apocalyptic visions for this planet? The title of this thread is that you are opposites, if the end is the same for me, then how am I supposed to view either as opposites? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Xianity, as taught and practiced by God, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus (esp when in Revelations: the story about the second and longer part of his life), paul and the authors of the Bible, regarded by the vast majority of Xian scholars and priests for doctrine in Xianity is reflected by the RC and evangelicals rather than the nice sounding stuff Buzsaw ascribes to Xianity here. 1. Christianity was never practiced by Abraham or Moses. They weren't Christians but were of a different age for a different purpose in the plan of God for the ages and for his kingdom which was eventually to be established on earth. 2. John the Baptist did not write Revelation. The apostle John did and simply prophesied what was to come in the days when the world was to become such that God must intervene with judgement before mankind self destructs from corruption and evil. It was also the time when Jesus would return and set up his rightious kingdom where the whole world would be blessed with no wars, sickness and long life with super climate. 3. Neither Jesus or his apostles taught Christians to do harm to anyone, nor did they themselves, except when Peter cut off the soldier's ear and Jesus rebuked him, restoring the ear.
What is the difference between the two statements above? You admit you are an unknown minority, sticking to the REAL Xianity that others reject. So do they! There you go, Holmes with your spin lie. I never ever admitted to being an unknown minority. I'm part of millions of Biblical fundamentalist evangelicals who are well known. Biblical non-violent Christianity is practiced by a whole bunch of us, and that seems to irritate you soooooo much more than the fundamentalism of the Quran taught and practiced by their prophet, the Jihad killers practice.
Once upon a time there was ONLY RC. Nonee. As the great multitude of Christians in communist China today, there were multitudes of underground Christians during the dark ages of the bloody inquisitions and persecution perpetrated by the bishops and popes of Vatican City.
Do you know any Islamic person? I know people that are nonsunni and nonshiite, and I know people that are Shiite. Interestingly enough these shiites are of a "denomination" of shia that do NOT ascribe to the tenets you say they must! Currently I have a friend that is staying in an Islamic country, with a family of a local shia cleric. That friend is a pagan. I mean a real, many gods pagan. That person gets along fine with all of them. There is a bit of culture shock (esp.with toilet facilities), but no problems religion wise... where is your stereotype of people in "Islamland"? Tell us about it. What country? Does your pagan friend practice their religion openly in the home/nation? I've never said there aren't good Muslim people who are non-violent. There's mutitudes of them. What I've said is that the leaders and devouts in fundamenalist nations who go by the prophet, the sunnas and the Quran become the most oppressive, intolerant and violent. I understand that in Palestine streets are named after terrorist suicide bombers. Their children are taught that this is a noble thing to do. There's no Israel on their school maps, etc, etc.
You also badmouth Palestinians as an example of Islamic evil, yet you always miss that there are Xian Palestinians living right along side Muslim Palestinians... both being oppressed by Israelis. How do Xians and Muslims coexist there now, and how have they done so for a while? Mmm, and how did the Christians fare who resided along side the Muslims in Lebanon?? How are the survivors of the persecution up there doing these days??
And you still have not answered my questions regarding the clear proscriptions against religious intolerance stated in the Quran. Why can't a Muslim (shia or sunni) believe contradictions between Sunna and Quran are trumped by Quran? Most of the writers of the valid Sunnas were close to or well informed about the prophet, his life and his book. They wrote and taught accordingly. The violence in them was not that contradictory.
Currently there are many Islamic countries enslaved by authoritarian governments which use the Islamic religion as their source of power. Do you see me question this? It is a terrible state of affairs. But that does not mean that all Muslims believe in this, or must believe in this. True. I have not denied that. I've clearly stated that until a nation gets totally in control of the fundie leaders, such as in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, they do not have the power to implement the true Islam as taught and practiced by the prophet and his subsequent desciples.
But let's say your accusations are right. Then what is the solution we MUST use for the above mentioned problem? If no Muslim can believe other than you claim, then isn't the only solution conversion or extermination of all Muslims? If not, what is? Keep them at bay as Israel does, as we are now forced to do, and as the world has done for 14 centuries. Otherwise, watch out and beware!!!
And finally, one day YOU will let down your sheep clothing, right? In the end times? One day I must become your enemy just because I am not your religion, right? You're advancing the cause of militant Islam right here and now, as you debunk the truths I have documented. They love apologists like you who make good folks feel comfortable with joining up thinking there's no danger once the numbers add up so as for them to take over the nation as they've done in so many already. Fundie Christians are sheep. We preach and teach the fundamentals practiced and taught by our Lord Jesus and his apostles. The wolves kill our fundie sheep by the millions. How can we take off that and end up wolves? Hmm?
The title of this thread is that you are opposites, if the end is the same for me, then how am I supposed to view either as opposites? Go figure.
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Buzsaw writes [summed]:
'the Qur'an says this and the bible says that, so the Qur'an must be wrong' repeated 10 times. ROTFLMAO. What kind of comparison is that? I was hoping that you would come up with some peer-reviewed archaelogical/historical evidence that could refute a certain statement in the Qur'an, and all you can do is that? Pathetic. I can do the same, saying that because the bible says this and Qur'an says that, the bible is wrong. Why? Because I believe that the Qur'an is axiomatically true! There we go, round and round in circles. Your case do not convince me, because I believe that the bible has been corrupted. Open a new thread. Throw in some evidence independent of both scriptures. Prove me wrong old man. About no.6, this Nimrod (Arabic spelling Namrudz) is the King of Babylonia, not the Nimrod of the bible. Maybe it's a popular ancient Middle Eastern name. About no.7, the 'mis-names' are actually Arabic versions of their names. Goliath=Jalut; Korah=Qarun; Saul=Thalut; Enoch=Idris; Ezekiel=Zulkifli; John the Baptist=Yahya; Jonah=Yunus. About no.9. 7:59--64 refers to Noah/Nuh and the flood (not global), and if you'd only inspect closely, Nuh's story ends at verse 64, followed by Prophet Hud's of the 'Ad people's story at verse 65 onwards, while 7:136 is actually about the Pharaoh of Moses' time, drowned in the sea with his army. Haven't we told you not to pick verses out of context? Oh yeah, your bible is wrong. It does not mention prophets such as Hud and Salih, or sages like Iskandar Zulkarnain /Alexander the Great and Luqman, accused Nuh of being drunk and Lot/Luth of incest, and claimed that Jesus was the son of God. What, is that strange? No, I'm just doing the comparison Buzsaw-style.
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Buz, I posted your comment at free-minds forum and the poster called 'TheNabi' has answered you directly.
Quoting him in his two posts (warning: long post)
quote: And his second reply to Buz:
quote:
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TAJMAHA Inactive Member |
** q_l_l l **
سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ Salaamunn 3alaykumm, Peace Be Upon You, Hello NosyNed, I like your post on Similarities. Great summing up! I wonder if it is OK with you if I borrow it and post it on Free Minds - Index. I assure you I will not violate your copyrights سَلاَمٌ هِيَ Salaamunn He-Ya Peace It Is
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
quote: Yeah, but they are a part of Xianity. Evangelicals and the RC refer to them, and their teachings/practices all the time. If not then we would not be faced with fundamentalists claiming we must allow the 10 commandments posted in front of court houses or we are rejecting Jesus and God.
quote: I didn't say John the Baptist wrote Revelations, nor was I trying to. That said I am uncertain how you can claim you know for sure who wrote it. That is a matter of some debate as far as I understand. But more important, Jesus would return and set up his righteous kingdom how exactly? Please explain how to an atheist or pagan this would differ than if Islamic militant radicals set up their righteous kingdom?
quote: We've been over this already. I agree with this statement in part. However many Xians who call themselves fundamentalists and outnumber your apparent group of evangelicals, refer to the second part of Jesus's life on earth (the lion... the sword wielder), as well as the likes of Abraham and Moses to justify violence and intolerance. I will also point out that (if I remember right) you have used references to the levitical laws and Paul's support of them to form reasons the government should persecute homosexuals.
quote: I was neither spinning nor lying. If anything I must be mistaken. You said that all Xians who advocate violence or used the teachings/practices of anyone else but Christ (forgetting the X of Rev) and his disciples are nonXians. I know of no evangelical group that has not advocated violence against pagans, atheists, Muslims, Jews, other Xian denominations, or homosexuals. Not to say they are against all of them, but every evangelical group I know of has advocated violence against at least one, if not more of those groups. Likewise all of the ones I know quote from the OT, and use Abraham and Moses in conjunction with X when discussing the entirety of the Xian faith. Please let me know what denomination you belong to, some places I can learn more about your leaders, and information on its demographics.
quote: You are the liar and this statement proves it. I have clearly come out against militant Islam. I have even stated that the MILITANT VERSION of Islam has been used to dominate and oppress many across the MidEast. Militant Islam is a growing danger and must be dealt with, including force when it is necessary. I was firmly behind our war in Afghanistan, and in fact believed it was long overdue. The Taliban and Al-Queda were dangers well known by anyone paying attention pre 9-11. My rejection of the Iraq War was in part due to its weakening of our efforts in Afghanistan, and that it would allow militant Islamics to gain another foothold/excuse in their war against US. The only defense I have given is that there are nonmilitant versions of Islam. Muslims are not all going to become this. Those that do are part of the same socio-economic issues that allowed for the oppression of the RC, and militant Xians/Jews today. If you call the militants the fundamentalists of Islam, then the same goes for the militant/oppressives of Xianity/Judaism. To do otherwise is hypocritical. Which group poses the greater threat right now? I'd say militant Islam, but the other militants religious zealots are right behind them (and are present dangers).
quote: And why can this NOT be true for Islam, even in "Islamland"? {quoteyour pagan friend[/quote] I'll let you know more in about a week or two (when the person comes back and I get to talk to that person some more). At that time I should have quite a bit to say... none of it in line with your assessment of Islam.
quote: No, you have said that to be a true Muslim, they MUST do this. The above statement I have no issue with, as long as you add that those leaders are attempting to gain power through the religion.
quote: You take a look at that map of the US, any map that children are shown in schools... look really close... you tell me how many show the lands of the Native Americans. After our illegally purchasing of THEIR lands from FRANCE, it is marked as ours. Even today, though they legally have their own nations within our borders, we do not show them as existing on our maps.... whoops!
quote: Nice dodge. Xian militants also massacred Islamic Palestinians under Sharon's guidance. The question was about the tolerant Islamic and Xian communities, not the militant ones. The nonmilitant groups have and do live well side by side. Want to address that point instead? Palestinians include both Xians and Muslims.
quote: Still dodging. The violence is clearly contradictory, except if one reads that one passage you quote endlessly out of context with the rest of the Quran. Why can't a MUSLIM (not the ones that WROTE THE SUNNA) decide the Quran trumps any contradictions.
quote: Again, telling Muslims that they MUST ascribe to shia or sunni denominations, and not choose the Quran (the ONLY stated word of God) as their sole source of wisdom.
quote: So to get this straight, you are saying that all Muslims must be forced into ghettos and denied the rights of other nations, unless they convert or are exterminated? If you do not mean this, please explain in detail, what is YOUR plan for how the world must deal with all Muslims? If you answer nothing else, I want the answer to this.
quote: By saying we need to fight militant Islamic forces? And FYI, you know whose trying to put their religion all over our government right now? Xians. Both groups of fundies look the same to me.
quote: What the hell are you talking about? What millions have died where? If anything, at this point we have now killed more innocent Muslims than any amount of Xians have been killed in the last 5 years.
quote: I have. If I end up dead at the end of both of your quests for rightenousness kingdoms, then there is no difference between you two. Do you have anything to counter this, or are you admitting it is true? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: This might be a good time to step in and express something that's been rolling around my head for a couple of days. Buz, you seem to have been expressing shock that anyone would find radical Christians more frightening than radical Muslims. On the surface, your shock would seem warranted. As far as who uses the most explosives, radical Muslims would seem to be in the lead. But the bottom line is, no matter how many buildings groups like al-Qaeda destroy, they're not going to directly remove our freedoms. The US is not going to say, "Holy crap! al-Qaeda struck again! Let's give in to their demands!" Some lives might be lost, true. But ultimately, the living (who far outnumber the dead) will not have their lives irrevocably altered. (There might be, and has been, some freedom lost in the American response to radical Muslims, but that's a different story.) However, radical Christian groups (which you seem to be defining differently than fundamentalist Christian groups, and for the purposes of this discussion so be it) are actively attempting to remove our freedoms, and are in a position to do so. The fight against gay marriage is a prime example... you might well be (and judging from your previous posts I'm guessing you are) morally opposed to gay marriage, but it's still a freedom being prevented from reaching the public because of radical Christianity. (And I know you to be smart enough to understand the difference between what God allows and what the government should allow, so I won't go into that.) So basically, that's where our fear of radical Christians comes in. They are in a position to affect the freedom of a far greater number of Americans adversely than radical Muslims are. I hope that cleared things up without rambling too much. "It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity." -Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Dan preaches to choir, choir shouts back "hallelujah!"
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
And there are worse waiting in the wings...
CHRISTIAN RECONSTRUCTIONISM, DOMINION THEOLOGY AND THEONOMY
The use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will beexecuted for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, homosexual behavior, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery (some translations say Witchcraft), etc. The Bible requires those found guilty of these "crimes" to be either stoned to death or burned alive. Reconstructionists are divided on the execution method to be used.
And just for extra relevance to this forum Howard Ahmanson is both a former board member of the Reconstructionist Chalcedon Foundation and major donor to the Discovery Institute
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Dan,
1. Christians who do not want the law to be changed allowing same sex marriages and all the legal nightmares that we get with that ARE NOT RADICAL. They've been thayaway for over two centuries. You people who want the laws which have worked so well changed to ruin out nation are the dangerous radical ones. 2. The bloody ruthless fundies of Islam, with one suitcase chemical or nuk bomb could conceivably take out our entire government when they were all in one session. That would likely delight the majority of Islamland even more than 9/11. Then where would our freedoms be? 3. The other slower way is to do it like they've done in most of the nations they run now by getting a third or more of the nation converted and go from there, tightening the noose. 4. You don't get the factual message, do you? It's the fundie Christian sheepies that'r being slaughtered by the millions by the brutal wolvsies. The sheepies aren't violent. We do things the hard and right way. We earn what we want at the ballot poles as it's been done ever since the early days when the Bible and Watt's hymnal were standard in all the DC schools. Biblical Christianity has done nothing but good for our nation all these years and you people want to change that. Keep on keeping on apologizing for Islam, all of you and keep on changing the laws against what's blessed America and by by to yours and my freedoms.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
No one is trying to change the laws to allow same sex marriage Buz...
We are saying the constitution need to be enforced. It's YOUR group that wants laws changed. Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Holmes, I simply don't have time for all your yada. Cut it down to a couple or three of something real substantial and we'll talk. I don't have and hour or two to answer your usual heckofalong posts. Think specificize and downsize. We've already gone over most of your stuff and I aintagona go over and over it. What we differ on, get use to it and agree to disagree.
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