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Author Topic:   When did Republicans learn to hate Democrats more than Russia?
Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 67 (867681)
12-01-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
12-01-2019 8:26 AM


No they did not have good cause. It was all a setup Writing on borrowee laptop, more later

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2019 8:26 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
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Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 17 of 67 (867685)
12-01-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
12-01-2019 11:22 AM


Don't bother unless you have facts.

Which you never do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 12-01-2019 11:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 18 of 67 (867690)
12-01-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
12-01-2019 8:26 AM


It seems that Mueller could not find evidence of collusion because the Trump campaign was incompetent, not because they didn't want to.

But Mueller did find a very large number of instances of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia and he reported on them in some detail.

Mueller never stated that he didn't find evidence of collusion. Instead, he could not find sufficient evidence of conspiracy to be able to bring an indictment.

In the summary for Volume I, Mueller explained this in some detail. There are no laws against collusion nor is there even a proper legal definition, but rather there are laws and legal definitions for conspiracy. Therefore Mueller chose to concentrate on investigating conspiracy and not collusion.

Now, while you cannot prosecute someone criminally for collusion, you can base articles of impeachment on collusion with a hostile foreign power. I'm not sure whether you can count the instances of collusion during the campaign, but there's little doubt that Trump's collusion with Russia has continued and still continues.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2019 8:26 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 19 of 67 (867691)
12-01-2019 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
12-01-2019 11:22 AM


No they did not have good cause. It was all a setup Writing on borrowee laptop, more later

What nonsense.

The Mueller report documented numerous cases of Russian interference.

And documented several cases of questionable actions by Trump/minions.

And documented several cases of obstruction of justice.

These are facts that you can confirm by reading the report (and not some biased filtered version).

quote:
Mueller Report Download Options

Download the Full Original PDF

The original report is published at https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf.

It is 448 pages, 139mb and contains both volumes, all as images(Not searchable).

Download Individual Chapters

We have split and re-merged each chapter individually for convenience.

This is great for mobile devices and users who want to focus on a small piece of the total report.

Volume I
  • Russian Active Measures Social Media Campaign
    • Structure of the Internet Research Agency [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Funding and Oversight from Concord and Prigozhin [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The IRA Targets U.S. Elections [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Russian Hacking and Dumping Operations
    • GRU Hacking Directed at the Clinton Campaign [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Dissemination of the Hacked Materials [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Additional GRU Cyber Operations [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Trump Campaign and the Dissemination of Hacked Materials [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Russian Government Links to and Contacts With the Trump Campaign
    • Campaign Period [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Post-Election and Transition-Period Contacts [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Prosecution and Declination Decisions
    • Russian "Active Measures" Social Media Campaign [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Russian Hacking and Dumping Operations [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Russian Government Outreach and Contacts [ View Online] [ Download]

Volume II
  • Background Legal and Evidentiary Principles
    • Legal Framework of Obstruction of Justice [ View Online] [ Download]
      Investigative and Evidentiary Considerations [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Factual Results of the Obstruction Investigation
    • The Campaign's Response to Reports About Russian Support for Trump [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Concerning the Investigation of Michael Flynn [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Reaction to Public Confirmation of the FBI's Russia Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Events Leading Up To and Surrounding the Termination of FBI Directory Comey [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Remove the Special Counsel [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Curtail the Special Counsel Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Prevent Disclosure of Emails About the June 9, 2016 Meeting Between Russians and Senior Campaign Officials [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Further Efforts to Have the Attorney General Take Over the Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President Orders McGahn to Deny that the President Tried to Fire the Special Counsel [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Towards Flynn, Manafort, [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Involving Michael Cohen [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Overarching Factual Issues [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Legal Defenses to the Application of the Obstruction-of-Justice Statues to the President
    • Statutory Defenses to the Application of Obstruction-of-Justice Provisions to the Conduct Under Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Constitutional Defenses to Applying Obstruction-of-Justice Statutes to Presidential Conduct [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Conclusion

Note: Each Chapter and subchapter can be individually downloaded or viewed online if you go to the volume links.

Facts, not conspiracy theory fantasy pushed by GOP apologists and deniers.

Read them, heed them, as you wish, but don't ignore them or dismiss them or you lose the argument.

Enjoy

Edited by Admin, : Fix quote at top of message, the text had somehow been included twice.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 12-01-2019 11:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-02-2019 11:47 AM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 20 of 67 (867725)
12-02-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
11-30-2019 2:37 PM


Faith writes:

ringo writes:

And you're very good at hate.


Not as good as you and all the other lefties

But I like you, despite your stupid ideas, and you hate me.

And as I've told you before, in some ways I'm probably more conservative than you are. You have no clue what a "leftie" is.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 11-30-2019 2:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 67 (867728)
12-02-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
12-01-2019 1:29 PM


The Mueller report documented numerous cases of Russian interference.

BUT NO INVOLVEMENT BY THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

And documented several cases of questionable actions by Trump/minions.

You START with "questionable actions" looking for evidence of actual wrongdoing that can be criminally charged. THEY FOUND NOTHING TO CHARGE HIM WITH, WHICH IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM MEANS HE WASW FOUND "NOT GUILTY." EXONERATED. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

And documented several cases of obstruction of justice.

IF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE HAD BEEN FOUND THEY WOULD HAVE LISTED IT AS STARR LISTED CLINTON'S FELONIES, AS A CRIME HE COULD BE CHARGED WI6TH. THEY WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED ANY MORE TO IMPEACH HIM, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED THE BOGUS
WHISTLEBLOWER" FIASCO. THEY FOUND NO OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

are facts...

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2019 1:29 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 12-02-2019 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 24 by JonF, posted 12-02-2019 12:38 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 25 by DrJones*, posted 12-02-2019 12:55 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2019 1:38 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 22 of 67 (867730)
12-02-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
12-02-2019 11:47 AM


Faith writes:

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?


The brick keeps falling off our Caps Lock keys.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-02-2019 11:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 23 of 67 (867731)
12-02-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by JonF
12-01-2019 12:05 PM


JonF writes:

Faith writes:

...more later

Don't bother unless you have facts.

But aren't those posts Exhibit A of the motivation behind this thread?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by JonF, posted 12-01-2019 12:05 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 24 of 67 (867733)
12-02-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
12-02-2019 11:47 AM


The Mueller report documented numerous cases of Russian interference.

BUT NO INVOLVEMENT BY THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

And they documented many instances of involvement by the Trump campaign. Just the table of contents takes almost three pages to list those instances. Describing those instances takes 102 pages.

You START with "questionable actions" looking for evidence of actual wrongdoing that can be criminally charged. THEY FOUND NOTHING TO CHARGE HIM WITH, WHICH IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM MEANS HE WAS FOUND "NOT GUILTY." EXONERATED. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

They found insufficient evidence to charge them. Which in our legal system means they are presumed innocent but in the real world everybody knows they are guilty, It especially DOES NOT mean anyone was found "not guilty".

IF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE HAD BEEN FOUND THEY WOULD HAVE LISTED IT AS STARR LISTED CLINTON'S FELONIES, AS A CRIME HE COULD BE CHARGED WI6TH

The report did list his crtimes and pointed out that that the Congress is the place he should answer for them. Nancy Pelosi decided not to do so not because of any issues with the legal case but because public support for impeachment wasn't high enough for her.

are facts...

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

We insist on facts rather than right-wing nutjob hallucinations.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-02-2019 11:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2025
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 25 of 67 (867735)
12-02-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
12-02-2019 11:47 AM


THEY FOUND NOTHING TO CHARGE HIM WITH, WHICH IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM MEANS HE WASW FOUND "NOT GUILTY."

nope, Being found "not guilty" only happens after a trial. Being unable to charge is not the same as a finding of innocence.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-02-2019 11:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 26 of 67 (867737)
12-02-2019 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
12-02-2019 11:47 AM


Thanks for again proving my point:

Message 19: These are facts that you can confirm by reading the report (and not some biased filtered version).

(many links to different parts of the report)

Each Chapter and subchapter can be individually downloaded or viewed online if you go to the volume links.

Facts, not conspiracy theory fantasy pushed by GOP apologists and deniers.

Read them, heed them, as you wish, but don't ignore them or dismiss them or you lose the argument.

Evidently you didn't bother to read the report.

The Mueller report documented numerous cases of Russian interference.

BUT NO INVOLVEMENT BY THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

Wrong. Mueller said insufficient evidence of conspiracy to charge them but enough that he couldn't clear them either. He left that to congress to pursue ... which brings us to the impeachment hearings and the current discussion of whether or not to include information from the Mueller report in the charges.

See next for more.

And documented several cases of questionable actions by Trump/minions.

You START with "questionable actions" looking for evidence of actual wrongdoing that can be criminally charged. THEY FOUND NOTHING TO CHARGE HIM WITH, WHICH IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM MEANS HE WASW FOUND "NOT GUILTY." EXONERATED. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

No, he was not exonerated of conspiracy, Mueller specifically said that he could NOT exonerate them.

What's wrong with us is that we look at evidence, what is actually said/written. Not what right wing echo chambers make up and say.

Here's part of the report you didn't read:

quote:
Russian Government Links to and Contacts With the Trump Campaign

Mueller Report Volume I

Pages 74 - 181 of the the Mueller Report.
Chapters


Note that that is 106 pages of documents of regarding contacts between Russia and the Trump campaign. There were a lot of them, and a lot of them were questionable for a political campaign.

For instance, Baby Don meeting with Russian in the Trump Tower and saying that if the Russians had dirt on Hillary that they were interested. Not evidence of conspiracy per se but also not exonerating him of working with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary for campaign purposes.

Kind of sounds like what he wanted from Ukraine about Biden ...

And documented several cases of obstruction of justice.

IF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE HAD BEEN FOUND THEY WOULD HAVE LISTED IT AS STARR LISTED CLINTON'S FELONIES, AS A CRIME HE COULD BE CHARGED WI6TH. THEY WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED ANY MORE TO IMPEACH HIM, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED THE BOGUS
WHISTLEBLOWER" FIASCO. THEY FOUND NO OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

Again they found many instances of obstruction of justice -- volume II which you haven't read is all about the instances of obstruction of justice. Mueller didn't indict him because he was operating on the understanding that he couldn't indict a sitting president, so he provided the information for the Congress to determine if there were impeachable offenses ... which again brings us to the impeachment hearings and the current discussion of whether or not to include information from the Mueller report in the charges.

Again from the Mueller report that you haven't read, as detailed in Message 19:

Message 19:
quote:
Volume II
  • Background Legal and Evidentiary Principles
    • Legal Framework of Obstruction of Justice [ View Online] [ Download]
      Investigative and Evidentiary Considerations [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Factual Results of the Obstruction Investigation
    • The Campaign's Response to Reports About Russian Support for Trump [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Concerning the Investigation of Michael Flynn [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Reaction to Public Confirmation of the FBI's Russia Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Events Leading Up To and Surrounding the Termination of FBI Directory Comey [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Remove the Special Counsel [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Curtail the Special Counsel Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Efforts to Prevent Disclosure of Emails About the June 9, 2016 Meeting Between Russians and Senior Campaign Officials [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Further Efforts to Have the Attorney General Take Over the Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President Orders McGahn to Deny that the President Tried to Fire the Special Counsel [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Towards Flynn, Manafort, [ View Online] [ Download]
    • The President's Conduct Involving Michael Cohen [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Overarching Factual Issues [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Legal Defenses to the Application of the Obstruction-of-Justice Statues to the President
    • Statutory Defenses to the Application of Obstruction-of-Justice Provisions to the Conduct Under Investigation [ View Online] [ Download]
    • Constitutional Defenses to Applying Obstruction-of-Justice Statutes to Presidential Conduct [ View Online] [ Download]
  • Conclusion

Note: Each Chapter and subchapter can be individually downloaded or viewed online if you go to the volume links.

Each one of those 12 instances listed under "Factual Results of the Obstruction Investigation" are instances of obstruction of justice.

Documented just as they were for Clinton in the Starr report.

are facts...

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?

What's wrong with us is that we look at the actual evidence, what is actually said/written. Not what right wing echo chambers make up and say, and certainly not what prevaricating Trump says.

Curiously, I compare Trump to Nixon ... and Trump is worse, and I compare Trump to Clinton ... and Trump is worse.

If their offenses warranted impeachment then so does Trump.

But, again, you'll deny and ignore ... because you can't handle the truth.

So Democrats are not lying about the Mueller Report -- you have been shown to be in error on this.

So no, you do not hate Democrats for lying about the Mueller Report. Facts aren't lies.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-02-2019 11:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 12:30 PM RAZD has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5878
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 27 of 67 (867843)
12-03-2019 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-29-2019 5:44 PM


It's a simple question, but I remember when republicans proudly proclaimed
"Better Dead than Red"

So when did Republicans learn to hate Democrats more than Russia?

We're living in bizarr-o world right now... from the 50's to the 80's, Republicans loathed anything communistic.

But that phrase was interchangalbe depending upon the audience

So, its true that its odd how accepting the Republicans became of Russia but its also odd how vilified Russia became for Democrats.

Either way it plays into the hands of Russia... they love this divisiveness.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2019 5:44 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 28 of 67 (867856)
12-04-2019 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2019 11:18 PM


Hi, Hyro.

...but its also odd how vilified Russia became for Democrats.

Just wanted to add a clarification here.

It's true that in the 1930s large numbers among the Left remained enamored with the Bolshevik dictatorship far longer than they should have, but I think most in the Democratic Party were never all that fond of the Soviet Union. At most, Roosevelt understood that Nazi Germany was a greater threat to US interests than Soviet Russia.

In the 60s and 70s, the Cold War was every bit a Democratic project as it was a Republican one; it was Truman who ramped up the Cold War, after all.

Again, at most there were those among the Democrats who objected to using Cold War hysteria as justifications for the subversion of democracy abroad and the erosion of civil liberties at home.

Democrats were as eager to contain the Soviet Union as any Republican. If there were any significant disagreements, it was mainly in how to accomplish these goals.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Minor typo.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Another one.


For this generation of far-right nationalists, religion is not a question of ethical conduct; it is purely about identity and peoplehood. -- Jan-Werner Müller

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6881
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 29 of 67 (867858)
12-04-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2019 11:18 PM


but its also odd how vilified Russia became for Democrats.

Are you claiming Democrats embraced Russia(or the Soviet Union) in the past?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2019 11:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 30 of 67 (867860)
12-04-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2019 11:18 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

...but its also odd how vilified Russia became for Democrats.

Again suggest you change your avatar to something less misleading and more honest.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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