Women's Reactions to Rape

A friend of mine was recently assaulted in the street by a would-be rapist, and the police handling the case were very pleased to have an actual, bona fide clear cut stranger rape for a change. As it were.

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OH OH and women have the advantage on men in leg strength! HAHAHA where did you think that one up at? How many women do you know with stronger legs than men?

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Patronising bastard. As it happens the woman I mentioned who fought her attacker attributed this to being a pole-dancer, and thus being easily able to lift her own weight with her legs and so forth.wormjitsu, your remark above is pretty stupid. Women have a lower centre of gravity and proportionally more muscle in the lower body than the upper body by comparison to men.

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I know a great deal of women who have lied about such things as being "raped.

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How many is that exactly? Exactly, please.

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Just curious what you guys think.

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I think you're dangerously close to an apologist for rape.

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Perhaps you could explain to me how it is you feel that women have a superior chance at succeeding in escape when on the ground UNDERNEATH their attacker. It has something to do with a higher ratio of lower body strength, that much you've made clear.

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Aren't you supposed to be some kind of fighter? Judo alone has a whole arsenal of things you can do from the ground. Just because you are on top of me doesn't mean that much - you may not be for long. Or, maybe I'll let you stay as long as you like while I have my hands around your throat and your arms pinned by my thighs. Further, while standing a woman fighting a man probably had less reach, and less upper body strength; on the ground, the reach advantage is negated, and the use of the legs in a lock is more viable. You can even use someones own weight to say, pin an arm. All sorts of things.This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-18-2004 09:14 AM

I'm a great advocate of all people learning self defence. But this question is wholly irrelevant to rape or violence against women. If we are saying it is a womans duty to defend herself, and that society as a whole is just going to look on complacently, then we are essentially saying that rape is cool if you can get away with it. It's just another case of blaming the victim and claiming it is their own fault (for dressing sexy/not being combative/being in the wrong place at the wrong time).

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By prosecuting the rapists. That's accountability. By convincing women to come forward about rape. That's education.

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Except that last is undermined by the frequency with which rape claims are dismissed. We have a cultural tolerance of rape by men that is the root of the problem - that is what needs to be addressed, not trainging girls in tae kwon do so that WHEN they are attacked they can react.

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I agree. Both men and women need to address the problem of rape. Men need to address it by not raping women, or encouraging their peers to do so; women need to do it by resisting rapists and being prepared to defend themselves.

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Well its kinda difficult to see men encouraging their peers not to do so when we have posts claiming the only thing that deters Johnny next door is his potential victims black belt. The question is why Johnny thinks of women as things that he can take, or sex as a commodity that can be stolen. And it is exactly those sorts of issues that men resist being tackled.

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That's exactly what arming women does. Men stop thinking of women as physically powerless creatures that they have to protect, and as capable combatants with the power to protect themselves.

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... until you disarm them.

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Indeed. Somehow, men have already managed to accomplish that. I'm simply suggesting we restore the balance of power

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I disagree; its merely a technical problem to be solved. As soon as you place the responsibility for rape on wonman being armed and trained to use those arms, you have made it clear that the only counter-argument to rape is violence; that rape must be considered a normal part of our social environment and women should, alone, simply prepare for the inevitability. That is not acceptable in my book; do we then start to discuss how hard she resisted, as well as how she was dressed, when deciding if an accusation of rape is a crime?And it is certianly not a viable suggestion as a solution to a social problem. You're basically saying "women, you're on your own, fight back or suffer." It places all responsibility onto the woman and alleviates me of responsibility for their actions. It's totally unacceptable.

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Tagless, you are rediculous in your claim that we should all just run from eachother in distrust

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Thats not Tagless argument, thats yours. That our society should be beased on mutual fear and the willingness and prepardness to resort to violence at any moment.

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Then you bash on the ability for a woman to defend herself like it's a bad thing.

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Thats a lie - Tagless and others have made it clear they DO support women learning self defence. What we do NOT support is the premise with which this thread started - that women are "odd" in not expecting to be raped and preparing to defend themselves with violence.Is it so weird to think that in 2004 women might be free to exist without being obliged to treat all men as predators? No doubt you will then whine about how distrustful women are.There is not getting away from the fact that this proposition blaces responsibility on women to avoid victimhood, and absolves broader society, specifically men, of taking responsibility for their own behaviour.

But thats not really the point, Crash - the point is that is it is innapropriate to place the burden of responsibility for responding to rape onto women. It would seem to me much healthier to try to treat the problem of why men rape, and develop a healtheir society with healthier realthionships between men and women, then resign ourselves to the inveitbality and advoctae the resort to violence.Of all the solutions, violence seems to me the least effective. As has been pointed out at great length - few women are attacked and raped by strangers. What about date rapes, especially drug-assisted rapes? Violence can't help a woman in this situation, and so appealing tio violence as a solution is useless.We have a recent case where a woman was gang-raped by 12 men, filmed, and told to "look happy" for the camera; are we really saying a young girl is expeccted to physically fight of 12 men and this is the best solution? No the problem is why the 12 men didn't stop each other - why male culture so frequently treats women as things rather than people. These guys were able to phone each other up and invite them to join in a rape in progress. The fact that MEN condone these actions among other MEN is the source of the problem - not lack of kung fu in womens shelters.'Gang rape teenager was filmed'A girl allegedly gang-raped by a group of footballers was told to "act happy" as she was filmed, a court has heard.The teenager told Kingston Crown Court she was forced to perform sex acts on up to 12 men at a flat in Brockley, south-east London, in March.Grimsby Town's Terrell Forbes, 23, denies one count of rape.Philip Mighton, 23, Darren Wallace, 23, Ashley Campbell, 21, Kevin George, 21, and Shane Sutherland, 21, all from south London, deny rape charges.'Duvet on the floor'The court had earlier been told the girl befriended Mr Sutherland who drove her to Mr Mighton's flat where she was raped by an "unknown number" of men on 4 March .There were people on the phone saying 'Come, we've got dessert for you'
Alleged gang-rape victimThe teenager told the court Mr Forbes, known as TJ, forced her to have sex in the bathroom.She said she complained her back was hurting and told the court: "He said to wait until he had finished."As she was "dragged" into the bathroom, she could hear men on the phone inviting others to join them."There were people on the phone saying 'Come, we've got dessert for you,'" she told the court.Later she was taken into the living room where she saw one man putting a duvet on the floor, the girl claimed.She said she saw Mr Sutherland with a video camera and was told by him to "say hi" and introduce herself, and to "act happy" for the camera.The girl, now 16, said the alleged attackers played a DVD showing a killing.She said: "One of the boys said 'We are killers, you know'. Then he said 'Oh, you think we are joking, we will chop you up and put you under the floorboards.'"She told the jury she thought he was joking but became scared when they played the film.She then claimed a catalogue of horrific abuse took place including being forced to perform a sex act while another man held a cosh up to her.She also said she was abused with a bottle and another tried to make her drink urine.The court heard the girl was "just frightened" throughout the alleged ordeal and was unable to leave because she "felt like a prisoner".The jury was earlier told the ordeal lasted 24 hours before the girl sent a text message to a friend saying 12 men had had sex with her.She then took a taxi to Euston, London, where she met a friend and "hugged her to death", she told jurors.Medical tests showed a friction burn on her spine and evidence of forced penetration, the court heard.Mr Sutherland, from Anerley, Mr Wallace, from Brockley and Mr George, from Catford, all deny one count of rape.Mr Mighton, from Brockley, denies three counts of rape and Mr Campbell also from Brockley, denies two charges of rape.Mr Forbes was playing for west London club Queens Park Rangers at the time of the assault.The case continues.http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4022365.stm

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What I'm wondering is why women haven't already shouldered that burden, after men have manifestly failed with it.

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Its called feminism - an attempt to make the relationship between men and women healthier by demonstrating a historical trend that enourages men to view women as sex objects, and prposes ways that this can be overcome. Unfortunately, society has by and large rejected it.(ironically, onme of the charges AGAINST feminism has been occassioanl statements to the effect that all men are potential rapists)

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Women relying on men to handle this problem would be like entrusting the Arab world with the responsibility not to blow up New York. It's just plain stupid. Men have demonstrated they can't be trusted with this burden. It's foolishness to trust your attacker not to attack you.

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The logic of the burka in Islamic states is exactly what you cite - men are untrustworthy beasts, and women can and should protect themselves from attack by not presenting themselves as targets - not being freely sexual beings.I take exception to the allegation that ALL men are would-be rapists, nor do I accept that men are irrational beings driven by lust and unamenable to logic, or respect for other people. That does not appear to me to be a valid description of men at all - I know many men who have been very caring and sensitive. This charsacterisation of men as evil sexual predators is not inherently true.And I have every confidence that we could in fact trust Arabs not to blow up New York if we dod not insist on making war on arab states. [quote] Why? Rape is rape. If women can't handle the thought of resisting a close male friend, or even a male aquaintence, then something is very wrong.[quote] Why should women have to handle it? Why can't men handle it? Why is it always the womans responsibility to avoid being attacked, and not the attackers responsibility not to attack?

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Aside from the rapists involved, show me a single man who condoned this crime.

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Well it seems to me that you are, because in your opinion this poor girl didn't shoulder the responsibility for protecting herself. Now I accept you are not actually just saying "too bad", but the fact of the matter is that this is not rape that is conducted by a single, rogue male in shameful and guilty isolation, concealing their crime from their fellows for fear of punishment - these guys were quite willing and able to make this part and parcel of their shared male culture. It is that male culture that is the problem - misogyny, in short.

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You're so sure that there's this male culture of rape that tells rapists that it's ok for them to rape, but I've never heard anybody tell me that, nor have I heard it said to any other man. So where do we start, with your grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?

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IMO, and there have been arguments about this before, many men simply don't like women very much. I remind you of the Dirty Sanchez discussion we had previously - an incident in which a woman is humiliated on film for the pleasurable consumption of other men. As long as the humiliation and denigration of women in popular culture our whole culture persist, and it is alive and well, we will still be propagating a female identity as a sex OBJECT, not a person at all.

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anyone would have been manifestly stupid enough to confuse my argument with this ridiculous characture.

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Lets start here:

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Belief in a just world

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Only 2% of accused rapists are convicted. In contrast FBI studies indicate that only 2% of all rape reports are false. "Low conviction rates result from insufficient evidence to prosecute, dismissal of trial due to technicalities and reluctance of victims to testify. For these reasons, low conviction rates do not imply false reporting."

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One of the main theories behind victim blaming is the just world hypothesis. "Individuals that have a strong belief in a just world can have this belief challenged when they encounter a victim of random misfortune such as a rape victim. The individual wants to believe that the world is a safe, just place where people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.

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Even when evidence suggests otherwise, the individual is very reluctant to give up this belief that the world is not just.
In the face of contradicting evidence, research suggests (Kleinke and Meyer, 1996) that people with a high belief in a just world will do one of two things: either they will try to eliminate the suffering of the innocent victims or else they will derogate them for their fate. Since it is impossible to reverse the crime of rape, and thus relieve the victim of her suffering, the rape victim is often subjected to derogation and blame. In this manner, the person who believes in a just world can maintain this belief as there is no longer a suffering person, but a woman who deserves her misfortune."

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No one wonders what the victim of a mugging or violent murder did to deserve it. Rape is a crime of violence, power and control. No one "deserves" it.

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And:

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Victim blame and the disinhibition of sexual arousal to rape vignettes.

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Author: Sundberg SL, Barbaree HE, Marshall WL.

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Violence Vict. 1991 Summer;6(2):103-20.

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"The present study examined the effects of differing levels of victim blame on the sexual arousal of males to rape vignettes. In the first experiment, a between-subjects experimental design was used to compare four groups of eight university males for their erectile responses to vignettes rated as low, medium, and high along a victim blame continuum. All groups found a consenting vignette more arousing than a nonconsenting vignette, however, this difference was significantly smaller for subjects in the high blame condition compared to the low and medium blame conditions. A second experiment supported the disinhibiting effect of the high victim blame manipulation using 12 university males in a within-subjects experimental design. The disinhibiting influence of victim blame on male sexual arousal to rape cues was discussed in relation to our broader understanding of sexual assault.

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Both from: http://pages.ivillage.com/...finderonlineresources/id36.htmlIn addition, lets consider Noam Chomsky's excellant summary of victim blaming as it relates to imperialist racism:

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When you’ve got your boot on somebody’s neck, you can’t just say, "I’m doing this because I’m a brute." You have to say, "I’m doing it because they deserve it. It’s for their good. That’s why I’ve got to do it." They’re "naughty children," as U.S. leaders described Latin Americans. They’re "naughty children" who have to be disciplined. Filipinos were described in the same way. Therefore, you don’t feel that you’re humiliating a child if you don’t let it eat poison or something. But that’s inherent in the relation of domination, unless you have unusual sensitivity among the ruling powers.

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Blaming the victim is something that ruling bodies use to justify their rule. It is very hard to recognise abusive behaviour in yourself without rationalising it away. The net result is that any oppressive body will construct for itself an ideology that rationalises its power and abuses as necessary, unavoidable, and virtuous, even for the victim.In our society, we have a long history of male domination of women, rationalised in exactly this manner. The rape victim is persistently held accountable for their own victimhood as a means of transposing guilt from the perpetrator to the victim.Almost everyone in this discussion has supported the general case that women would benefit from martial arts training in various forms, or even from carrying a weapon (although I do not support this). What has been objected to is the claim that you find it inexplicable that women do not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for fending off such assaults, precisely because this, like all oppressive ideologies, is the transfer of culpability from the perpetrator to the victim.Furthermore, as mentioned about test subjects in a "high blame condition" above, there is a mysogynistic attitude that circulates among men, by and large in male-only environments, in which this blame condition is extremely high and reinforced. It is precisely that culture that IMO existed among the 12 men - and it existed publicly, so that they felt no shame in open admission of what they were doing.Whether innocently or otherwise, your argument accords with these ideologies of oppression, and that is the basis for the resistance you encounter.

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Where's this "culture" that's supposed to have told you and I that it's ok to rape? Because I've never seen it. I've never met anyone who's seen it.

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I genuinely think it is completely impossible for you to have not seen it, becuase it is so prevalent in our media. It is merely normalised, becuase our society is still highly misogynistic.This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-25-2004 11:19 AM

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I don't understand what any of this has to do with anything currently under discussion.

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I have just explained it to you - a doctrine of oppression requires an ideoloogy that makes the victim culpable. Look around at the theists apologisong for the genoicid of Soddom and Gamorrah becuase "they deserved it" - thus god, and christians, are absolved of responsibility.

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But I haven't seen it. Oh, I get it. Because you can't support your statement, I must be a liar.

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You don't need to be a liar. You might merely be a misogynist.

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guess you haven't actually read the thread. Almost nobody has agreed with this general case. The most strenuous objectors have been women, themselves. The purpose of this thread, in fact, was to explore exactly why the position you've erroneously described as "generally supported", in fact, isn't.

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And time and again it has been explained: becuase the proposition in itself makes women culpable and is thus a rape apologetic, becuase it is useless under many of the situations, and because it implies a permanent and radical collapse of in-species communications. Please, don't leacture me on reading the thread.This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-29-2004 05:07 AM

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But that's not the topic of discussion.

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It is the sub-topic you specifically requested I address; you asked me to walk you through it. I have done so, what is your problem?

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Well, you might be an idiot, I guess. If name-calling is the best you have, then you're the second person in this thread I simply won't be able to communicate with.

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Help help I'm being repressed!

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Then please, read it. Now you seem to have reversed your position. Which is it? Have people been agreeing with the proposition, or have they been following your tack and calling me a mysogynist who wants to blame the victim? If you had read the thread, you wouldn't be so unsure.

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I have read the thread, of course. You specifically asked why multiple people had suggested you were blaming the victim. I provided you with information that demonstrates that your argument accords with a socially manipulative strategy to transfer culpability to the victim in a well-understood oppressive mechanism. I have elected to treat your argument as an innocent mistake, as I allowed, as a mark of respect for your generally high level of analysis. I do not understand why you seem completely determined to reject this argument. The more you continue to reject it, and protest the innocence of your position, the more it appears that you have some other agenda.It has been explained to you multiple times: women grow up with loving fathers and caring brothers and do not hate men from the outset. As even in the 'rape vignettes' abstract I quoted, it showed that ALL the male subjects experienced MOST arousal with consensual situations, not rape situations. Rape is socially rationalised and excused; it is not IMO an entirely authentic natural response but a result of misogynistic social programming.

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It's actually fairly simple. Self-defense tactics work in rape situations. So why is the idea of self-defense so roundly dismissed by the very people who could stand to benefit most?

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Because it treats the symptom, not the cause. And becuase of the easy way it beocmes a blame-game that rationalises the very crime it claims to address. I ask again: does the logic of the burka not also arise from this argument?This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-29-2004 11:36 AM

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There's an Arab proverb: "Trust God, but tie up your camel." Obviously, it's a crime and not your fault if someone walks up and steals your camel. But why would a person think that the best strategy for camel-theft-prevention is to simply hope it doesn't happen?

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Thats a fair enough point. But let me suggest that yourt proposition is more akin to tlocking your camel in a shed and never riding it anywhhere. That is, the costs of your proposal in terms of the human relationships it would damage is too high.I mean I've seen womens self defence classes specifically with this sort of ambition taught at some of office places. Its not as if it never happens. But developing a sort of universal siege mentality may well prove to be a cure that is worse than the disease by rendering so many relationships fraught with suspicion and fear.