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Author
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Topic: Reasons why the NeoCons aren't real Republicans
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 31 of 301 (218193)
06-20-2005 11:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
06-20-2005 6:32 AM
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Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
Don't you believe balanced budgets, strong military that is used wisely, smaller gov't, and less intrusive gov't are the main fixtures of Rep values? Balance Budget - Bush gets a thumbs down from me here. Yes, we are at war and I understand the expenditures that come with it, but I feel spending could be cut in other areas (socialist programs). Smaller Government - Bush gets a HUGE thumbs down from me here. There was no need to federalize airport security. They did their job. Less intrusive - Mccain/Finegold took the constitution and tore it to shreds. Shame on Congress and Bush for passing it. The Patriot Act is ok in my book. When the Govt starts arresting people and throwing them in jail without charges when those individuals don't have anything to do with terror, I'll voice opposition to the PA. For now, it works, and works well.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Silent H, posted 06-20-2005 6:32 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 35 of 301 (218377)
06-21-2005 10:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
06-21-2005 7:51 AM
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Money isn't speech. Yes, but it limits candidates from buying commercials 60 days before a primary and 30 days before a general election but it doesn't limit the media from doing their own commercials because they don't have to buy their time. Not to mention it doesn't work anyway.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 06-21-2005 7:51 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 53 of 301 (218696)
06-22-2005 2:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by FliesOnly
06-22-2005 1:43 PM
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Re: Practice what you preach
Monk: I’ll try this one more time. The atrocities (to which you supplied the quote) neglected to mention the addition actions of being chained to the floor and being denied food and water. Imagine that...a quote misused...I'm stunned. Are you agreeing that this sort of treatment is ok? Are you saying that this treatment is in keeping with the ideals of this Country? Are you saying that this does not sound like something that may have come out of testimony in regards to a Gulag or Concentration camps? You guys (neocons) are the ones misusing what he (Durbin) meant. You guys (see above) do it almost every time someone criticizes this administration. Why is that? Againthe comparison Durbin made was specifically in reference to the actions he mentionedis that really so difficult for you to figure out? And keep in mind it was based on the words of and FBI agent that went to Gitmo. So you can stop giving me a history lesson, it’s irrelevant to the discussion. US Troops/Marines in Basic Training, not to mention Ranger School or BUDS *SEAL school*, have it MUCH worse than prisoners in Gitmo. Gitmo prisoners are not forced to stand at attention in 100 degree weather wearing 60 pounds of gear. Gitmo prisoners don't have 30 seconds to eat what they can. Gitmo prisoners are not kept up for 22 hours a day. Gitmo prisoners are not forced to march 25 miles with 60 pounds of gear, not including weapons and ammunition. Gitmo prisoners cannot be fead MRE's becaue "it is considered inhumane." Gitmo prisoners aren't forced to lowcrawl through mud or hold a 10 pound weight with outstretched arms for an hour. There are no "atrocities" happening at Gitmo. Gitmo in no way resembles a gulag.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by FliesOnly, posted 06-22-2005 1:43 PM | | FliesOnly has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 58 of 301 (218716)
06-22-2005 4:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by Jazzns
06-22-2005 3:07 PM
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Re: Practice what you preach
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gitmo prisoners did not choose to subject themselves to those activities by bravely enrolling themselves for the defense of our country. No, they chose to be UBL's body guards and unlawfully attack Coalition troops using TERRORISM!
I admire all of the courage of our soldiers and the things they have to endure but how dare you compare your choice to their confinement which flies straight in the face of everything this country stands for. To show you that we are more "mistreated" than they are.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by Jazzns, posted 06-22-2005 3:07 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 60 of 301 (218720)
06-22-2005 4:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Silent H
06-22-2005 3:54 PM
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Re: Practice what you preach
Gitmo prisoners don't get a choice of whether to opt out at any time Again, they chose to engage in unlawful warfare, volunteered to be UBL's body guards, and highjack US planes to fly them into buildings. It was thier choice.
Even the most put upon soldier eventually can retire, and they most certainly do not go through what you mentioned for as long as Gitmo prisoners have been imprisoned. See above.
Honest question, if our soldiers were treated this way by their captors it would be considered illegal, yes or no? Yes.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Silent H, posted 06-22-2005 3:54 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 62 of 301 (218728)
06-22-2005 4:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 61 by Jazzns
06-22-2005 4:14 PM
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Re: Practice what you preach
Yea, and it is not mistreament when it is your choice to be in that situation. It was their choice. They chose to fight us using illegal methods.
It is mistreatment when it is prision without trial. Prisoners of War yes. These are not POWs and are not afforded the benefits thereof.
I am in firm defiance against your cavalier attitude that their illegal detainment is in any way similar to your chosen profession. Again, it was there choice, and their detainment is not illegal.
Do you really think you are making a good point to the people reading this? Yes.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by Jazzns, posted 06-22-2005 4:14 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 81 of 301 (218901)
06-23-2005 8:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by crashfrog
06-23-2005 7:10 AM
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Re: No similarities
Fun fact - armed military contractors - or "mercenaries" as we used to call them - are entitled to no more protections under the Geneva Conventions than the insurgents are. They're both classified as "irregular armies."
Please cite the rule from the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War document.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2005 7:10 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 82 of 301 (218902)
06-23-2005 8:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Jazzns
06-22-2005 4:41 PM
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Re: Practice what you preach
Oh of course. Those illegal methods that were objectively determined by a tribun..... oh wait I forgot. Yes, you did forget. They are covered in Article 4 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War:
. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) That of carrying arms openly; (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Those are the rules. The only criteria that those nice men in Gitmo meet is that they are commanded by a person responsible for subordinates. They don't have fixed insignia recognizable at a distance. They don't carry arms openly. And they do not conduct their operations in accordance with the law and customs of war.
Basic human rights be damned. Yes, God forbid a woman talk to them. Poor babies.
Good luck with that hypocrisy. Hope it goes well for you. Not sure what logic you are using here. My stance is pretty clear.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Jazzns, posted 06-22-2005 4:41 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by Jazzns, posted 06-23-2005 10:35 AM | | Tal has not replied | | | Message 112 by nator, posted 06-24-2005 9:03 AM | | Tal has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 84 of 301 (218911)
06-23-2005 8:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by CK
06-23-2005 8:14 AM
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Re: No similarities
Would you agree with American Citizen (no connection at all to military) being locked in a prison without legal representation for upto 3 years, chained to the floor and psychologically tortured and then turned free without any reason given for their detention? If that American Citizen went to a country to fight against said power using terrorists tactics and not abiding by the rules of war, then they get what's coming to them.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by CK, posted 06-23-2005 8:14 AM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by CK, posted 06-23-2005 9:01 AM | | Tal has replied | | | Message 87 by nator, posted 06-23-2005 9:25 AM | | Tal has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 86 of 301 (218919)
06-23-2005 9:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by CK
06-23-2005 9:01 AM
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Re: No similarities
6 November- The Court of Appeal rules that Mr Straw cannot be compelled to intervene over the detention by the US of Mr Abbasi. I wonder why?
On Monday 11 January 2005, the British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw announced that the four Britons in Guantanamo Bay: Moazzam Begg, Martin Mubanga, Richard Belmar and Feroz Abbasi, will be returned to Britain "within weeks" after "intensive and complex discussions" with the US government. Though they are still regarded as "enemy combatants" by the US government, no specific charges have been brought against any of them. We don't just pick up people off of the street in a foriegn country and toss them in Gitmo. I don't have the details of where/why they were picked up, but it was probably in a raid. Notice that we did indeed let them go, but only because of political pressure from Britain. We still consider them enemy combatants. 7 Gitmo prisoners that have been released have returned to using terrorists tactics against coalition forces.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have been involved in terrorist acts, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence, according to the Pentagon. At least two are believed to have died in fighting in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a raid of a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman, said last week. Others are at large. The seven were among 203 detainees released from the prison at the U.S. naval base on Cuba's southeastern tip since it opened in early 2002. Of those, 146 were let go only after U.S. officials determined they no longer posed threats and had no remaining intelligence value. How about that.
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by CK, posted 06-23-2005 9:01 AM | | CK has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by nator, posted 06-23-2005 9:34 AM | | Tal has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 89 of 301 (218923)
06-23-2005 9:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by nator
06-23-2005 9:25 AM
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Re: No similarities
I didn't realize that every single one of the Gitmo detainees had had specific charges brought against them and evidence presented which proves that they are guilty of using terrorist tactics. It's not a court of law and we still consider them Enemy Combatants. They did something to justify that status.
I didn't realize that each of the detainees had been been tried, being allowed legal council and to prepart their own defense and have their case heard fairly by an impartial court. They aren't POWs.
I also didn't realize that the US government had narrowly defined the term "terrorist tactics". Also, is it OK with you that the US has abandoned habeas corpus?
Well if we tightly define it, lawyers will find loopholes. Habeas Corpus for illegal comatants killing US troops?
"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..." -Army Cadence "A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future." - General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by nator, posted 06-23-2005 9:25 AM | | nator has replied |
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