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Author Topic:   A confession, for discussion.
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 63 (475090)
07-13-2008 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
07-13-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
Straggler writes:

Would you feel comfortable watching explicit public scenes of "non deviant" sexual practices? Would a married man and woman going at it hammer and tong in the middle of a busy shopping centre be any more acceptable to you?

A great question which I should also like Buzsaw to answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 07-13-2008 10:20 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:24 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 32 of 63 (475094)
07-13-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 10:30 AM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
But which sexual practices are deviant and which are not?
Who decides?
On what basis?
Should all "non-deviant" sexual practices be allowed to be practiced in public?
Who decides what is allowed in public?
On what basis?

Should a married couple be allowed to get down and dirty, full on intercourse in the middle of a crowded public park during the day?
Should gay people be baned from performing oral sex on each other in the privacy of their homes?

On what basis do you make your conclusions?

Intelligent humans have a natural tendency to feel uncomfortable with any kind of activity which is deviant to the norm by and large over the millenia in civilized cultures.

Yes but what is the 'The Norm'. The norm in Victorain England would not be the norm in North America 50 years ago. The norm for you is not the norm for a 19 year old today.
Everyone has a tendancy to think 'the norm' is as things were when they were growing up.

What is the norm? Where and when exactly did this norm exist in your view?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:30 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:18 PM Straggler has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 63 (475121)
07-13-2008 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
07-13-2008 10:45 AM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
War is not a sacrament of religion. No more responses by me on this since this is not the topic perse.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 07-13-2008 10:45 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 63 (475122)
07-13-2008 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Straggler
07-13-2008 11:30 AM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
Straggler, as I've reiterated, what is deviant and what is normal pertains to what nearly all civilized cultures have considered deviant and/or normal relative to this topic throughout recorded human history.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 07-13-2008 11:30 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 07-13-2008 1:27 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 07-13-2008 1:32 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 63 (475123)
07-13-2008 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2008 10:51 AM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
DA writes:

Straggler writes:


Would you feel comfortable watching explicit public scenes of "non deviant" sexual practices? Would a married man and woman going at it hammer and tong in the middle of a busy shopping centre be any more acceptable to you?

A great question which I should also like Buzsaw to answer.

DA, I addressed that in my messatge 10 as follows:

Recorded human history bears out what is natural and good for the conduct between humans, be it between two men, two women or between man and woman in private and in public. For the most part, sexually related intimate activity appears naturally to be for privacy in civilized human cultures.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2008 10:51 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by subbie, posted 07-13-2008 1:28 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2008 6:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 36 of 63 (475124)
07-13-2008 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
quote:
Straggler, as I've reiterated, what is deviant and what is normal pertains to what nearly all civilized cultures have considered deviant and/or normal relative to this topic throughout recorded human history.

Do tell, have you done some kind of comprehensive study of "nearly all civilized cultures . . . throughout recorded human history" to support your conclusion? Or are you simply relying on your millenia-old religious text for your definition?

By the way, why limit it to "civilized cultures?" Are those nasty heathens not worth your consideration?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:18 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 37 of 63 (475125)
07-13-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 1:24 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
quote:
For the most part, sexually related intimate activity appears naturally to be for privacy in civilized human cultures.

Any evidence for this? Or are you talking out of your ass, as usual?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:24 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 38 of 63 (475127)
07-13-2008 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
Straggler, as I've reiterated, what is deviant and what is normal pertains to what nearly all civilized cultures have considered deviant and/or normal relative to this topic throughout recorded human history.

Yes you have asserted this. It still makes no real sense. Normality is whatever is considered normal in a given culture. The definites you imply but refuse to state do not exist.
Various cultures throughout history have had very different views as to what is 'normal' and what is 'deviant' in terms of sexual behaviour.

It would be impossible to get any sort of consensus amongst the various cultures that exist now!!!! Never mind including all those that have existed in the past!!!!

So what is 'normal' and where and when in human history this 'normality' actually in effect?

For someone with such definite views and supposedly well founded conclusions as to what is 'normal' and what is not you seem very reluctant to actually define or describe what is normal and the basis of this 'normality'.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:18 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:40 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2945 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 39 of 63 (475149)
07-13-2008 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 10:38 AM


Re: You Say Tomatoes
Why do your prejudices get to be universals and mine don't? That hardly seems fair.

BTW: your use callous is not a verb. It does not have a past tense.


Kindly

∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

Everyone deserves a neatly dug grave. It is the timing that's in dispute.

牛持ちでない方は、男です。


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:38 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 63 (475155)
07-13-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 1:24 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
DA, I addressed that in my messatge 10 as follows:

Recorded human history bears out what is natural and good for the conduct between humans, be it between two men, two women or between man and woman in private and in public. For the most part, sexually related intimate activity appears naturally to be for privacy in civilized human cultures.

Which is OK, except that it brings me back to my point.

Most "civilized human cultures" are fine with people kissing in public. Americans have the need to become juvenile about it and shout "get a room", something that puzzled me a lot until I realised that you guys really do think it disgusting for two people in love to kiss in public.

And I think this is weird. Europeans think it's weird, and frankly we outnumber you. If you're going to appeal to the practice of "civilized human cultures", then I guess that Europe is fairly "civilized", and we win and we outnumber you and you are wrong.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 1:24 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 63 (475187)
07-13-2008 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2008 6:05 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
DA writes:

Most "civilized human cultures" are fine with people kissing in public.

Why do I need to keep repeating what I said when you quoted exactly what I said? I said Recorded human history bears out....... and sexually related intimate activity. I'm not talking about what is acceptable today when I say in civilized cultures intimate kissing, fondling etc in public has not been the norm. That's not saying it has not occurred. I'm saying it has not been acceptable behavior by most civilized cultures. I've lived all over the US for 7 decades and I've observed people from many cultures on TV since TV was first invented. It's a modern phenomena that it is becoming more acceptable, especially among younger citizens. It's a deviation from what has been considered proper in most cultures.

OTOH, kissing in public as a greeting denoting no sexual intimacy has been widely acceptable throughout human history.

I suggest that any who think I'm full of it prove me wrong.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2008 6:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by subbie, posted 07-13-2008 11:52 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-14-2008 7:45 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 07-14-2008 8:15 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 63 (475188)
07-13-2008 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
07-13-2008 1:32 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
StragglerFor someone with such definite views and supposedly well founded conclusions as to what is 'normal' and what is not you seem very reluctant to actually define or describe what is normal and the basis of this 'normality'.

See my response to DA. I've said it more than once. What has been considered normal is greeting kisses and I might add, and greeting hugs, not sexually intimate.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 07-13-2008 1:32 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 43 of 63 (475195)
07-13-2008 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 10:30 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
quote:
I've lived all over the US for 7 decades and I've observed people from many cultures on TV since TV was first invented.

Okay, so now we've gone from "nearly all civilized cultures ... throughout recorded human history" to the parts of U.S. in the last 7 decades where a tight-assed whiteboy is likely to go, plus what a tight-assed whiteboy watches on television. Well, you've certainly narrowed the scope considerable.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 44 of 63 (475217)
07-14-2008 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 10:30 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
Recorded human history bears out....... and sexually related intimate activity. I'm not talking about what is acceptable today when I say in civilized cultures intimate kissing, fondling etc in public has not been the norm.

Where does "recorded human history" bear this out? If you have the whole of recorded history on your side, perhaps you could quote some of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 63 (475222)
07-14-2008 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
07-13-2008 10:30 PM


Re: Natural Inhibitions For Civilized Cultures.
Why do I need to keep repeating what I said when you quoted exactly what I said? I said Recorded human history bears out....... and sexually related intimate activity

Were the ancient greeks, Egyptians or Romans 'civilised'? Modern day sexual explicitness would seem relatively moderate compared to some of the practices of these cultures.
Are modern day Islamic cultures civilised? (many of these would consider the levels of sexual indiscretion of 1940s North America that you seem to find so acceptable absolutely abhorrant)

Which cultures are you talking about exactly?
Name a few.

If the examples are so numerous this should not be difficult.
You keep stating that there are many such cultures and that these are the historical norm. However you also seem utterly unable to actually name a single specific example.

Or are you setting up a circular argument whereby the 'civilised' cultures that are examples of your accepted levels of sexual discretion are themselves defined as 'civilised' by their levels of sexual discretion?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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