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Author Topic:   "...except in the case of rape or incest."
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 301 (296819)
03-20-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
03-20-2006 2:09 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
How is a fetus conceived by rape less of a member of society?
But its not about them being less of a member of society. Its about aborting the child as being the lesser of two evils versus forcing a woman who was raped to have the kid.
ABE:
If a woman gets pregnant as a result of her actions, then I dont think abortion is the answer. But if someone forces her to get pregnant, then they've removed her responsibility and she should not be forced to be pregnant. Its not that a child that is the product of rape is less a member of society so its ok to abort it.
This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 03-20-2006 01:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 2:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 301 (296821)
03-20-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:21 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
Catholic Scientist writes:
But its not about them being less of a member of society.
If the fetus is not a member of society, why does society have a responsibility to protect it? Does society not have a greater responsibility to the woman, who is a member?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:32 PM ringo has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 301 (296823)
03-20-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
03-20-2006 2:28 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
If the fetus is not a member of society, why does society have a responsibility to protect it? Does society not have a greater responsibility to the woman, who is a member?
The people who think abortion should be illegal consider the fetus to be a member of society and consider the abortion of that fetus to be murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 2:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 259 of 301 (296824)
03-20-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:19 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
It does matter how it came about, as it matters if the woman was raped or not.
You didn't answer the question: If a person needs help - say medical attention - which has the higher priority? Give them the help they need? Or find out who's to blame?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 3:29 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 301 (296825)
03-20-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:32 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
Catholic Scientist writes:
The people who think abortion should be illegal consider the fetus to be a member of society and consider the abortion of that fetus to be murder.
Clearly they don't. We already have laws against murdering members of society. Either they agree that a fetus is not a member of scoiety or that killing it is not murder.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 301 (296829)
03-20-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:14 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
If you’re down in East St. Louis at 3 o’clock in the morning and you get mugged by a crack dealer you’re going to get a lot less sympathy than if a crack dealer mugs you in front of your house in Columbia, MO.
In conversation? Sure. In a court of law? Nope. Still the fault of the crack dealer.
You made some poor choices that resulted in you getting mugged and the rest of society is less responsible for your protection if you are putting yourself in dangerous situations.
Legally? Not true. Cops, paid for by society, are still supposed to be patrolling that area. Society at large will still be footing the bill for the crack dealer's trial and incarceration.
The lesson of the day: making a mistake does not make you a second-class citizen.
Of course, this all assumes that the person was in fact making a mistake by being in that neighborhood. Maybe they're poor as shit and have to live there?
Second lesson of the day: trying to pass laws that make blanket assumptions about whether or not a victim deserves sympathy is a very bad idea.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 3:33 PM Dan Carroll has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 301 (296839)
03-20-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
03-20-2006 2:33 PM


You didn't answer the question: If a person needs help - say medical attention - which has the higher priority? Give them the help they need? Or find out who's to blame?
Give them the help they need.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 2:33 PM ringo has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 301 (296840)
03-20-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Dan Carroll
03-20-2006 2:42 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
In conversation? Sure. In a court of law? Nope. Still the fault of the crack dealer.
I wonder if there would be any difference in the court cases for the situations I described...
ME writes:
You made some poor choices that resulted in you getting mugged and the rest of society is less responsible for your protection if you are putting yourself in dangerous situations.
Legally? Not true.
Agreed. But in actuality, I think the difference would present itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-20-2006 2:42 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-20-2006 3:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 301 (296844)
03-20-2006 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 3:33 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
I wonder if there would be any difference in the court cases for the situations I described...
Don't really know how to answer this. It's like asking, "I wonder, if I was holding a rock in my hand and let it go, if there'd ever be a situation in which it would fall up?"
Nope.
Agreed. But in actuality, I think the difference would present itself.
We're talking about what should and should not be legal, aren't we? The law would seem to be the start and end of it.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 4:09 PM Dan Carroll has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 301 (296847)
03-20-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Dan Carroll
03-20-2006 3:49 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
Me writes:
If you’re down in East St. Louis at 3 o’clock in the morning and you get mugged by a crack dealer you’re going to get a lot less sympathy than if a crack dealer mugs you in front of your house in Columbia, MO.
In conversation? Sure. In a court of law? Nope. Still the fault of the crack dealer.
I wonder if there would be any difference in the court cases for the situations I described...
Don't really know how to answer this. It's like asking, "I wonder, if I was holding a rock in my hand and let it go, if there'd ever be a situation in which it would fall up?"
Nope.
Well we can just stop right there. There's no reason to continue discussing this. There's no way those cases would not be different and the explanation would be off topic.
We're talking about what should and should not be legal, aren't we?
There was a little more to it than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-20-2006 3:49 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-20-2006 4:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 266 of 301 (296848)
03-20-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:14 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
You made some poor choices that resulted in you getting mugged and the rest of society is less responsible for your protection if you are putting yourself in dangerous situations.
Could you substantiate that from Missouri law, please? I'm asking you for the specific statutory language that allows people to mug you without penalty in East St. Louis at 3 am.
The problem is that some people see abortion as murdering a person.
Under the law those people are objectively, legally mistaken. They're free to hold their own opinion on the subject but they have no right to demand that others act as though they hold the same view.
But you should still stay out of E’Saint at 3 am . .
Maybe I live there. Why should I be expected to stay away from my home? Your position is ridiculous.
I don’t know how that would be handled and I’m not prepared to come up with a way to do it.
If not you, then who? No one else is under an obligation to solve the problems with your position. If your position is untenable and indefensible, it's intellectually dishonest of you to maintain it.
I think it would.
You're factually wrong.
They wouldn’t be criminals if they didn’t break the law.
Meaningless and irrelevant. One in three women have had at least one abortion, and there's no factual basis for assuming this will cease to be true if abortion is made illegal. Therefore your plan turns one out of every three women into criminals.
How will you punish these illegal abortions, CS? Jail time? You've argued that abortion kills a person; since the abortion is certainly premeditated that's a charge of third-degree murder, at least.
Like I said nobody else is under an obligation to untangle the contradictions in your own position. It's your job to either do so or abandon an untenable position, if your desire is to be intellectually honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 4:46 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 267 of 301 (296849)
03-20-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 2:19 PM


It does matter how it came about, as it matters if the woman was raped or not.
Because rape victims are blameless, but sluts should not be allowed to escape their penance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 2:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 268 of 301 (296851)
03-20-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 1:31 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
quote:
The illegality would prevent the abortions,
No, it wouldn't. At least, not significantly.
The well-off have always been able to go to a foreign country (or locate a discreete MD in this country) to obtain a safe abotion when they need one while the poor have historically had only spotty availability and are still often are unable to obtain a safe abortion in a timely fashion.
It would also result in an increase in a black market of illegal and dangerous "back-alley" abortions performed in unsanitary conditions by poorly- or untrained people. It would also increase the incidence of infanticide and the abandonment of infants.
Abortion has always existed, CS.
It's just a matter of if you want it to be available and safe for all, or just for the rich.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-20-2006 04:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 1:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2006 4:45 PM nator has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 301 (296852)
03-20-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2006 4:09 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
Well we can just stop right there. There's no reason to continue discussing this. There's no way those cases would not be different and the explanation would be off topic.
No... really. When it comes to who is to blame, and whether society has to clean up afterwards, it makes no legal difference if the victim was mugged in a nice neighborhood or a bad neighborhood.
Honest.
There was a little more to it than that.
Was there?
quote:
I've never exactly understood this exemption language in reference to criminalizing abortion, and I'm hoping that somebody who is anti-abortion can explain it to me.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 4:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 270 of 301 (296853)
03-20-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by nator
03-20-2006 4:24 PM


Re: ringo goes off half-cocked
The problem here is that CS thinks that making abortion illegal will make people think that abortion is wrong; but that's irrelevant. Even the people who think abortion is wrong still get abortions.
Abortion clinic workers have a lot of stories about seeing a pro-lifer protesting out in front of the clinic, and then, one day, sneaking in the back with her daughter to get her an abortion. (They're usually rude about it too, as though they deserve special treatment for deigning to take advantage of the services the clinic offers.)
The next day she's back out there in front of the clinic. Almost one-third of women who get an abortion will answer in the affirmative if asked if they truly believe that they're murdering their child - but they do it anyway.
You're right about the timelessness of abortion. Even the Bible offers a recipe for an orally-administered abortifacet (but like much of the Bible, it doesn't actually work.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by nator, posted 03-20-2006 4:24 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2006 4:47 PM crashfrog has not replied

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