"...except in the case of rape or incest."

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The real issue is killing an innocent life in the name of convenience....

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Actually the real issue is terminating an unwanted condition. "Innocent" and "life" are rhetorical terms used by those who have no real argument beyond their own desire to impose their beliefs and values on others.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Then why was Scott Peterson convited of 2 murders?

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Because there are legislators that would abuse the law and language for their own agendas.-

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According to you his son would be simply an "unwanted condition."

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No, that would be determination made by the woman carrying the fetus.-

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his wife was obviously an unwanted condition

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Probably, but unlike a fetus at least his wife was a person.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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You play you pay.

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This seems to support the idea that pregnancy is just punishment for a woman who dares to have sex outside of a legally sanctioned marriage. (Now if only we had something to take care of those lesbians!)

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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If someone breaks the law they should be punished.

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Is that all laws in all situations, or do you recognize situations where violation of the law is either a legitimate matter of personal freedom or a matter of moral necessity?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

I haven't failed to notice that the conservatives claim to be against sex outside because of the consequences (STDs and pregnancy). Yet when anyone tries to offer ways to mitigate these consequences and make sex safer, then these same people suddenly scream that this would encourage people to have sex.In other words, people shouldn't have sex because there are dangerous consequences. But we need to maintain the dangerous consequences because people shouldn't have sex.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Too bad that the concept of the soul being infused at the moment of creation....

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Nor was it the traditional concept. In the Middle Ages, the first time the mother felt the baby kick was called "quickening", and that was when it was believed that the baby recieved its soul.Hell, read the Torah. If a person killed a real person, there was a procedure to follow to determine whether the killing was intentional murder or an accident. However, if a person caused a woman to miscarry, it was treated as if the person killed another person's chattel. So the idea that a fetus is a human being isn't even Biblical.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Hi, Ludo.

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Not meaning to stir up debate. Just giving the info.

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No need to keep saying this. There's nothing wrong here with stirring up debate, and certainly no problem with seeming to stir up debate. This is, after all, a debate board.-Nice reply. Yes, translations are tricky. I will assume that you realize that there isn't a prophecy in Isaiah that the Messiah would be born of a virgin.I wonder if arachnophilia will get involved now? He knows a lot about classical Hebrew.-

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My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the Earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.

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Wow. This is so close to some common mythologies. Taken literally, it certainly brings to mind of the myth of the underworld where the dead live until they are reborn. I wonder, what were the myths of the area at the time when this psalm was written?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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The government DOES have the ability to decide that that is unacceptable behavior in society and can place penalties on that act.

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Just like Stalin's Russia!

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Come to think of it, Tal seems to have missed a couple of posts of mine, too. One of them was a sincere attempt to engage in an intellectual debate on an important issue, too.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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does anybody know the main reason why most abortions are preformed?

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I've said this before, it doesn't matter to me. A woman is pregnant and she doesn't want to be pregnant. For me, that's enough reason for her to terminate the pregnancy.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Hello, Ludo. What movie is your avatar from?Yes, I realize that your question was asked in the context of a discussion. I just want to point out before people get too emotionally attached to any particular arguement involving statistics that ultimately this debate is one about morals and ethics, and I think that the statistics are going to prove largely irrelevant to the ethical reasons that people are holding.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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the egg is not a human until it is attached and starts the process of forming.

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Since we're giving our own idiosyncratic definitions, I say a child is not a human until it becomes a conscious entity.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

For some reason I figured it was that movie, even though I've never seen it. Funny, huh?

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Good call on the statistic things. I'll leave it out.

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Oh, don't do that, not if you feel it is relevant. I was just putting in my own 2 cents.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Actually, this thread has been very tame. So far everyone has been more or less polite -- at least in comparison to a lot of other threads! Stick around if you want to see a volatile thread. (In fact, I am expecting this one to explode eventually, heh.)

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Other women, who aren't inculcated in the belief that taking an entirely reasonable action in the face of an unexpected situation, have little trouble with abortion.

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Indeed. This very point came up on another message board and I decided to try to find something on PubMed. I didn't find very much, but the studies I did find either found that either there was no significant impact on the mental health of the mother, or that the mental health effects correlated with the moral beliefs held by the mother before the abortion.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt