"...except in the case of rape or incest."

Ringo states:"The Mother's responsibilities have no such convient limits."and:"My point is (and I hate to have to explain what my point is)that those who would deny the right to abortion ought to be willing to take complete responsibility for the unwanted children."If this hypothetical pregnant woman/teenager got pregnant due to having unprotected sex without thinking of the consequences: We'll I wans't the one not using protection. I wasn't the one who didn't think before I got laid. It wasn't I who did it without protection, and without thinking that if I got pregnant I would either have to have an abortion (and have it screw me up mentally for the rest of my days and or be called a baby killer and or brave a wall of rapid pro-lifers yelling at me when I went to the abortion clinic. Not to mention fearing that God would damn my soul.) or send the kid up for adoption knowing that he or she could be adopted by the manson family. It's not my responsibility or anyone else. It is the responsibility of those that made her. I would help her in anyway that I could, but I'm not the perpetrator here.Now in cases of rape, it's a little different. That's got to mess with a woman's head to be carrying the child of the man who raped her. But should she end the life of a human/fetus/VARMIT (whatever you call it) just because it is a jerk's kid? I wont stop her from doing it. It's her life. But she has to make that choice. I would choose to give the kid "Agape" love (Agape: Koine Greek for "Unconditional Love")and love the child despite who fathered it.In the cases of incest (which is also rape in most cases I think, though in the backwoods it is consensual love making LOL)the infants made from such a union could have horrible medical issues. But then again many people with disabling medical issues have made contributions to society (Stephen Hawking)Some medical issues can result in life-long pain and misery both physically and mentally at the same time, to the point where it could be a living Hell. In those cases that is a mercy killing. But that kind of deformity and life is far, far worse than growing up in foster care all your life and then having to make it on your own, and should never be compared in a counter argument. Plus I would have to see a reputable source that shows that the majority of abortions are because of incest children so biologically deformed that it would be inhuman to let them live. Anyone have such a statistic?But I dont think that that kind of deformity is rampant. And there is still a choice between raising a kid who is born of incest, and loving that child with all your heart, or just getting rid of it.Of course we wouldn't be having this discussion if you went with my "pro-life and pro-choice nail-bat battle of Armageddon" idea.This is a pretty good debate. I wont be able to stay in it long, but good none-the-less.BTW: Ringo, I've already said that if I was married, and if we both decided, I would adopt. I would therefore take complete responsibility.BTW: does anybody know the main reason why most abortions are preformed? Rape, incest or having sex without protection? Maybe using protection but it didn't work? Would be helpful in this discussion.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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does anybody know the main reason why most abortions are preformed?

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I've said this before, it doesn't matter to me. A woman is pregnant and she doesn't want to be pregnant. For me, that's enough reason for her to terminate the pregnancy.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

[Dan's clever Alias] said:"I know you are but what am I?"Sorry for that. I was trying to quote you from a former post. I dont know how to work the quoting things on here well. I wans't acusing you of that.What I want to impose on them? I dont want to impose. They have that choice, whether legal or not. I'm against it, and I think that It should not be legal, but I myself wont force her to keep her kid.There seems to be an impass on this. It ultimately comes down to how we define "human". How do you define human?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Chirp I was asking that because it could be useful in this debate, for either side depending on what it shows. Plus we need a neutral statistic. The pro-lifers could give an attack based on the statistic, and the pro-choicers could give a response. Just an idea.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I don't see why legality is relevant to responsibility.A woman can choose to take responsibility by aborting her fetus. If that possibility is removed, then whoever removed it must take on the responsibility.Suppose I throw an old couch into the garbage. You think it's too good to waste, so you "rescue" it and set it up on your front lawn. Your nighbours complain that it's an eyesore but you maintain, "Don't blame me. It's Ringo's couch."When you undid my decision, you absolved me of responsibility and took it on yourself.

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I'm with Batman - I don't care. It's none of my business unless I'm the father - and then I'm a third wheel at best, after her and her doctor.

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Hello, Ludo. What movie is your avatar from?Yes, I realize that your question was asked in the context of a discussion. I just want to point out before people get too emotionally attached to any particular arguement involving statistics that ultimately this debate is one about morals and ethics, and I think that the statistics are going to prove largely irrelevant to the ethical reasons that people are holding.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

I guess I'm one of those. My unmarried teenaged mother couldn't find or afford an abortion so she put me in an orphanage. She and I finally found each other again 45 years later.
During my life I've touched the lives of literally thousands of young people, fathered 2 kids, grandfathered 2 and now am the great-grandfather of 1. Had she found and could afford an abortionist, all those who have been touched by my life would not.
I've seen a sign that says "An abortion stops a beating heart." It stops more than that, it stops generations of beating hearts.
Prochoicers say a woman's body is up to her to control, yet there are all kinds of rules that women must follow pertaining to her body.
My understanding is a woman's mental problems are multiplied by an abortion. I've seen young teenagers who became a different person after an abortion.
I don't like the idea of a woman being raped, period. But a child that is the result of it is not responsible and should be put up for adoption, not killed.As for the means of keeping an egg from attaching being a form of abortion, the egg is not a human until it is attached and starts the process of forming. I believe that is 'conception'.

Hey chirp.The avatar is from the movie "labyrinth" starring David Bowe. In it a girl's stepbrother is taken by the Goblin King (Bowe) and she has to get him back from him by 13 hours. The Creature you see in my avatar with her is a (at least) 2,000 pound horned yet cuddly monster that she befreinds and travel's with. His name is...Ludo (hence my username)Good call on the statistic things. I'll leave it out.I'll get to the OK corrall with Ringo later (LOL)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Murphy welcome to this volatile thread LOL.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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the egg is not a human until it is attached and starts the process of forming.

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Since we're giving our own idiosyncratic definitions, I say a child is not a human until it becomes a conscious entity.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

For some reason I figured it was that movie, even though I've never seen it. Funny, huh?

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Good call on the statistic things. I'll leave it out.

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Oh, don't do that, not if you feel it is relevant. I was just putting in my own 2 cents.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Actually, this thread has been very tame. So far everyone has been more or less polite -- at least in comparison to a lot of other threads! Stick around if you want to see a volatile thread. (In fact, I am expecting this one to explode eventually, heh.)

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Ringo: good analogy. How about this one?I throw an old dog into the trash can. You think that the animal is suffering, so you take it and take care of it yourself or send it to people or the proper authorities. But let's say you took it. And your neighbors complain because it poops in their yard. "Dont blame me. It's LUdo's dog"tables are turned, dont you think? It's very much in the eyes of the beholder.Aside from rape/incest (which you can still choose to love the child instead of disposing of it)no matter if I stop you from aborting your kid, it is STILL your responsibility.Mother: I need to abort my kid. I dont want to take care of it, even though I knew this could happen and still had sex without protection.Official: Your sick lady. Ain't gonna happen,Mother: But if you stop me from doing it, it's now your responsibility!Official: You da one who had unsafe sex! Your problem not mine.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I have to agree. I've been studying this site for along, long time. I've seen worse.Youre right, it's gonna explode. Better duck when it does LOL.When it does though, I'm just going to laugh.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4