"...except in the case of rape or incest."

Yeah, I mean, we just want to control women's uteruses. That's completely unrelated to all the other aspects of control we want over women.These damn feminists, can't keep the issues seperate!

You guys are nuts, I can't even agree with you, and you have to get all upset at me, and take out the wrongs of the world on poor ol riverrat.

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Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

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People don't kill people
Cartoons kill people

ROFLMAO!!!!!!THat is a good one Tal LOL

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

To Crashfrog:Hi There You seem a little harsh in your reply to my post. Take it easy dude. Didn't we learn from the 60's? Make love not war (Of course, I was born in the early 80's, but I love to look at history)Would I belly up and adopt a kid? If I was married and we decided on it, sure. I'd rather have my wife pregnant (I love pregnant women) but heh, adoption is pretty darn good. I have adopted dogs and other critters in my life, why not a human.There are more kids waiting for adoption than there are couples that want them, but it makes it worse that more and more american couples are adopting overseas. I think most couples would want to adopt a baby too, not a 3-10 year old child. Course I could be wrong.BTW: I have da balls LOL

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hmm, no pro choicer has replied yet.Has the right-wing won this debate, or is this the calm before the storm?I think it will be the latter. Get ready to hit the dirt!!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Tal You have got to post more pictures like that. kudos on it.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-15-2006 11:06 AMThis message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-15-2006 11:09 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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One way to settle the issue is to give the child in question to a couple wanting one when it is born and (here is the catch) make them pay up front in cash for the little tike!! Instead of losing money in an abortion, make money by giving the kid to a couple that will pay high dollar for it. You can make money this way. What could be more American than that?! Plus you wont have to live with the mental scarring of having an abortion. If this idea comes into major practice, abortions would plummet, the protests wouldn't be as large or as agressive as in the past, and you'll have more time to play Scrabble

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The risk of death is 11 times higher for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth than for having an abortion.The risks increase if the girl is very young.

Hey there Schrafinator (I hope I spelt that right) going full term in pregnancy is 11 times more dangerous for the woman than an abortion? That does make some sense. Do you have a source for the info? I'm not saying "liar liar pants on fire" I would just want to read it. I love to read Be careful though. I can see where the argument where going if you where debating a hyper-pro lifer.Schrafinator: Abortion is much safer for the woman than enduring a full term pregnancy.Hyper Pro-lifer: Safe for the woman, but definitely not for the unborn child!One thing leads to another....Hyper Pro-lifer: leave me alone!Schrafinator: Hey! Stand still!!smack! Jab! crunch!! (LOL)BTW: Since pro-lifers (like myself) and Pro-choicers debate on whether the unborn should be called "child" or "fetus" I propose a new term (from texas) : VARMIT!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Yeah, this thinking stems I believe from the early Catholic church's stance on fornication and adultry. Both of which are sins according to the tenets of that faith. Since the Christians dominated the western world for 1000 years and the spread to the new world it seems only natural that these fundalmentalist views would creep into American law, society and morality. Too bad that the concept of the soul being infused at the moment of creation is now somehow no longer the case since any human cells except RBC can contain DNA and possibly the formation of a human. So when I shave am I sinning? It is time the church had Vatican III in my opinion. These issues need to be addressed.

BTW:"the risks increase if the girl is very young"Do the risks increase if the mother-to-be is obese or morbidly obese?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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Too bad that the concept of the soul being infused at the moment of creation....

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Nor was it the traditional concept. In the Middle Ages, the first time the mother felt the baby kick was called "quickening", and that was when it was believed that the baby recieved its soul.Hell, read the Torah. If a person killed a real person, there was a procedure to follow to determine whether the killing was intentional murder or an accident. However, if a person caused a woman to miscarry, it was treated as if the person killed another person's chattel. So the idea that a fetus is a human being isn't even Biblical.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Umm... almost everybody on this thread is pro-choice. If you look at the OP, this debate is about the hypocrisy of the right wing. They claim that abortion is murder, yet it is "okay" in some way if the fetus is the result of rape or incest. They claim that the fetus is a person, yet it is "okay" in some way to kill it if it is the result of rape or incest.

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Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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You play you pay.

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It is clear that many people are ignorant of exactly what "paying" means in connection with "playing".It is also clear that you and other anti-leagal abortion folks hate and mistrust women, especially pregnant women.

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I don't support the government doing anything relating to sex. That should be for the parents (competent parents anyway)to *gasp* teach their children about sex and its CONSEQUENCES.

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Yeah, but many parents don't do that.Let's say little Jenny's and little Tommy's respective parents don't teach them anything about sex. There is no sexual health education available to them in school, either. They are ill-informed, learning about sex from their friends and from movies and TV in a haphazard way, learning a mix of myth and truth.Tommy gets Jenny pregnant even though they thought they were using birth control properly. Jenny decides to have an illegal abortion which is discovered, because there are surveillence cameras all over the place and the FBI has been watching this woman's health clinic for a while ever since abortion became illegal again.Do you hold Jenny's and Tommy's parents liable for the "murder" of the pregnancy, because they failed to communicate the proper knowledge to their children?

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Have an unwanted pregnance? Either keep the kid or give him/her up for adoption.

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OK, one of your suggestions is to keep the kid.Well, let's see, if the mother cannot aford it, are you going to pay for quality day care for the baby while the mother completes school and/or works in order to provide a good life for the child? Oh, wait, conservatives don't like day care because you believe day care damages children and that a parent should raise them. OK, so that means that you must be in favor of supporting the mother to stay home and take care of the child. Oh, hold on, THAT'S no good because that's welfare. Conservatives hate welfare even more than you hate daycare, so that's out.I almost forgot to remind you that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth and the recovery afterwards is no walk in the park for a woman's body. People still die from complications due to pregnancy. In fact, people die at a rate 11 times greater from preganacy and childbirth compared to having an abortion. That's not to mention the permenent physical damage that can be done short of death.So, what's your solution, tal?

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There are plenty of couples out there that can't have kids of their own that would jump at the chance of adopting.

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Except that there are thousands of children right now who are waiting to be adopted and who never will be. They will bounce around from foster home to foster home until they "age out" of the system and are left to fend for themselves.What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

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The answer is definately not to scramble the kids brains and crush his skull.

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The vast majority of abortions are done long, long before the fetus is anywhere close to being that developed, tal. They are done in the first trimester. D&X procedures are very rare.Perhaps you should read some real statistics instead of getting them from biased wingnut websites.

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Here's a theory: Don't have sex until marriage. I did it.

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Er, do you think that married women don't get abortions?Only 8% of women getting abortions used no contraception. 90% of women who have an unplanned pregnancy are using contraception.

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I now have 2 wonderful children and good, solid family life.

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One or both of those children are adopted, right? Because it would be hypocritical of you to suggest that people put their unwanted children up for adoption if you aren't going to volunteer to take at least one.

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Who taught me about sex? My mother did when I was 8 years old. All the gory stuff too. It wasn't just jack and jill make a baby jack somehow. I guess that was her nursing and biology degrees coming into play. I didn't rely on the government to tell me how to make my decisions or what the consequences would be.

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That's dandy for you.My parents told me NOTHING about sex. Not a thing. Luckily, I had at least a decent bit of sex education in health class, but I learned from friends and from reading things myself.It seems you want to encourage ignorance about sex within the population.That is never a good thing.Now, I notice that you overlooked some questions I had for you regarding your views on punitive measures against people who kill fertilized eggs or allow them to die. Please answer them

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going full term in pregnancy is 11 times more dangerous for the woman than an abortion? That does make some sense. Do you have a source for the info? I'm not saying "liar liar pants on fire" I would just want to read it. I love to read

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Sure, it's
here.

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Be careful though. I can see where the argument where going if you where debating a hyper-pro lifer.

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Schrafinator: Abortion is much safer for the woman than enduring a full term pregnancy.

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Hyper Pro-lifer: Safe for the woman, but definitely not for the unborn child!

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One thing leads to another....

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Well, the answer I have for that is that it is clear that this particular anti-legalized abortion supporter considers the person who is pregnant to be not a person with rights, but a piece of meat with value only as an incubator for a fetus.