"...except in the case of rape or incest."

I think we should get all the Pro-choicer's and the Pro-lifers and take them to the Valley of Meggido in Israel (aka "Armageddon) arm them with nail bats, and let them have at it in a free-for-all. Whoever wins will decide the issue for America LOL.Seriously, I am pro-life, but I wont debate that here. I'll probably get creamed from all sides (I pick the battles I can win)This is a sensitive issue for me. Not only do I like to pick on little babies (I'll teel them things like "The Moon is made of Green Cheese" "Dont trust anybody: especially your parents!" it's fun, and they are too young to remember it He He)I also have a special place in my heart for Pregnant women.One way to settle the issue is to give the child in question to a couple wanting one when it is born and (here is the catch) make them pay up front in cash for the little tike!! Instead of losing money in an abortion, make money by giving the kid to a couple that will pay high dollar for it. You can make money this way. What could be more American than that?! Plus you wont have to live with the mental scarring of having an abortion. If this idea comes into major practice, abortions would plummet, the protests wouldn't be as large or as agressive as in the past, and you'll have more time to play Scrabble (LOL)Just an Idea.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

ROFLMAO!!!!!!THat is a good one Tal LOL

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

To Crashfrog:Hi There You seem a little harsh in your reply to my post. Take it easy dude. Didn't we learn from the 60's? Make love not war (Of course, I was born in the early 80's, but I love to look at history)Would I belly up and adopt a kid? If I was married and we decided on it, sure. I'd rather have my wife pregnant (I love pregnant women) but heh, adoption is pretty darn good. I have adopted dogs and other critters in my life, why not a human.There are more kids waiting for adoption than there are couples that want them, but it makes it worse that more and more american couples are adopting overseas. I think most couples would want to adopt a baby too, not a 3-10 year old child. Course I could be wrong.BTW: I have da balls LOL

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hmm, no pro choicer has replied yet.Has the right-wing won this debate, or is this the calm before the storm?I think it will be the latter. Get ready to hit the dirt!!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Tal You have got to post more pictures like that. kudos on it.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-15-2006 11:06 AMThis message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-15-2006 11:09 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey there Schrafinator (I hope I spelt that right) going full term in pregnancy is 11 times more dangerous for the woman than an abortion? That does make some sense. Do you have a source for the info? I'm not saying "liar liar pants on fire" I would just want to read it. I love to read Be careful though. I can see where the argument where going if you where debating a hyper-pro lifer.Schrafinator: Abortion is much safer for the woman than enduring a full term pregnancy.Hyper Pro-lifer: Safe for the woman, but definitely not for the unborn child!One thing leads to another....Hyper Pro-lifer: leave me alone!Schrafinator: Hey! Stand still!!smack! Jab! crunch!! (LOL)BTW: Since pro-lifers (like myself) and Pro-choicers debate on whether the unborn should be called "child" or "fetus" I propose a new term (from texas) : VARMIT!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

BTW:"the risks increase if the girl is very young"Do the risks increase if the mother-to-be is obese or morbidly obese?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hy Chiroptera "So the idea that a fetus is a human being isn't even Biblical."Not necessarily. The passage you are talking about is Exodus 21:22-25. in the KJV it reads (using the Scofield KJV):"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."But more modern versions are clearer, better, and different in the rendering. THe Updated NASB renders verse 22 as:"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide."And then in the next verse it states in the beginning:"But if there is any further injury,"It says in the footnotes that the literal translation of verse 22 where it says "she gives birth prematurely" can also be rendered "an untimely birth occurs" and literally means "Her children come out" it seems more like a premature birth than a miscarraige, since it says "yet there is no injury" after that.THe ESV states it about the same in Exodus 21:22 ;"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine"THe TNIV renders it:" if people are fighting and a pregnant woman is hit and gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the courts allow."And in the footnotes, it says that "Gives Birth prematurely" can also be translated as "and has a miscarraige""The Message" a paraphrase, tends to take the latter translation.Now to translate scripture with scripture, it seems that the Bible would take the former view.In Psalm 139:13-16 it says (using NIV version)"For you created me my inmost being; you knit me together in my Mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the Earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." (Compare ESV, Updated NASB,TNIV,KJV,JPS,NAB, etc)This shows that we do have an existence before we where born, and God seemed to care about us during this time even "knitting us together" molding us if you will. So it seems that "premature Birth" is the better reading than "miscarraige" since if God was caring so much for the unborn in this fashion, in his character he would order punishment for ending the life of something he both cared about and was working on (as he seems to do in Exodus 21:23 and so forth)THere is another verse that shows this in the psalms, but I have to dig for it. IT still doesn't matter to some here though. Not everybody goes by the Bible, or the same interpretation of the Bible, but it seems to show what God thinks about it.Not meaning to stir up debate. Just giving the info.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

He Schrafinator Thanks for the source I asked about the obese-pregnancy risk factor becuase one time I heared on Oprah (My Mom was watching it. Pipe down LOL) a woman who was 350 pounds (starred in "Shallow Hal" as one of the ugly ladies that "Hal" started dancing with. Da big one) and she was saying that one day she was talking to a nurse about one day having a kid when the Nurse went ape bonkers on her. Something like "You wont survive! You'll die! You cannot have a kid now!" or something like that.I also saw on the Maury povich show that a 150 pound guy married or was dating a 600 pound woman, and she ended up pregnant. Daytime talk shows are not really my cup of tea, but they are amusing to watch every now and again.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

BTW: Hi Ringo, and all the others that have jumped on this thread

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Crashfrog For the children of the third world, adoption by Americans is a good thing. I agree with you there. But the more children adopted overseas by Americans leaves more and more children here left unadopted. It's bad for them. I guess it's one of those double edged swords, yin-yang, weighing the issues kind of thing.Callous disregard? Nah, I have regard for both. If I had a female freind that was frightened with an unintended pregnancy and having her life wrecked by it, I would help her out. I would be the Lamaze coach, go with her to the hospital, and even be with her in the delivering room if she wanted.Now if you're angry at how I'm carefree with the subject, Im sorry. With all the bile and hatred given and taken on both sides, I thought that I could just liven things up a bit. With this subject, as well as others, I just dont let it get me angry when it comes to debates like this. I try to put a little humor, that's all.And dont worry: I like everybody on here, no matter their beliefs on subjects. Including you

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Actually, I would help her out even after the baby was born. I'm just that kind of person.Would I drive her to an abortion clinic? I've already said I was pro-life. I'm not rabid though."Would you let her stay at your house if your house was nearer to the abortionist than where you lived?"I think you meant to say would I let her stay at my house if it was closer to a abortion clinic than where she lived. Of course! Why not?Does my benevolence stretch that far? Hold on. Ill have to measure it. Let's see...I need some rulers, I need to know it's circumfrence...

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

"what is it about american babies that you think nobody wants?"I never meant to say something like that. It's just at times when a couple want to adopt, and they have the ability to adopt a child here, they may at times adopt a child overseas instead, which means that a chance for a child here to be adopted is closed.Nothing wrong with american tikes last time I checked.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Chiroptera The prophecy of the virgin birth in Isaiah is in Isaiah 7:14. From what I have heared, the Hebrew word does not mean "Virgin" but "Young Maiden" or "maiden" as the Updated NASB says in it's footnotes. In the Book "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Volume three, Messianic Prophecy Objections" by Michael L. Brown, it goes in depth on this word in the original classical Hebrew as well as the context. He states that the Hebrew word in question-'almah-can refer to a virgin, but doesn't specifically mean "virgin". It seems the primary relation to this word is adolescence, not virginity (see page 20 of the same book.)This guys blows out of the water the idea that this disproves the importance of the virgin birth in this chapter though (starts page 17, ends page 32)and when it comes to adolescence, Mary of the New Testament still fits the Bill, since people in Palestine during New Testament times where legally able to marry at 13 years old for a boy and 12 years old for a girl (See "Nelson's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Bible" by John Drake, page 96 under "Monogamy")Now the typical Israelite marraige was usually between an almost 20 year old man and a girl in her early to mid teens (Page 41 of "Holman Bible Handbook) though this must have changed under the Romans in NT times, given the much earlier ages that people where marrying at that time period.As for the myths of the area: The Jews of the Old testament didn't believe that you either went to Heaven or Hell when you died. Indeed, at first the Hebrews didn't have any concept of an afterlife. They viewed people like most Christians view animals today in one aspect: When you die, that's it! Later the concept of an underworld developed, a place that was gloomy and dark, know in the Old Testament times as "Sheol" which was said to be under the Earth(see "Nelson's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Bible" page 164, and pages 1482-1484 of "Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary: Completely revised, updated and expanded)This verse might be hinting that before our bodies are formed in the womb, our souls/spirits are formed in Sheol by God. It is a possibility.I cant think of other people's beliefs surrounding the afterlife during that time around Israel, save for the egyptian and Greek religions, but I've filled this post enough. Be back.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

If I married her, yes. That would be what we call a "white knight" but more than likely I dont think something like that would happen. I would help in some ways, though not in everyway.Plus I could hit er up with a good guy. Or find a couple that would want the child if she didn't. It would depend on the woman in question.I could also send the infant off to be a guinea pig for scientific experiments.... :Twisted:

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4