Gay marraige and the end of the world

Well I'm not going to say what you think I am going to say, but I am sure I got your attention.I have a question for my fellow EVC'rs.If right wing fundie conservatives are not worried about hurting our enviroment, because they say that God doesn't care, and the end of the world is near anyway, then why do they care if people are gay or not?
Why do they care about gay marraige?I mean whats the difference, the end of the world is coming right?
God will judge everyone right?

Ok, I know I have been involved in a few threads about gays before.
I can see from the replys here that all of you do not understand my position on it in the least, even though I have expressed myself till I was blue in the face.I find all of you just as guilty as me in that you have labeled me, and decided to treat me based on that label. So whos better than who here?No one thats who. Thats what I hvae been saying since day one, since before I was a Christian, and my whole life. I see all people as equal, and having purpose in this life.Beberry, this is not a reply to you only, but to all of you. Most of what I just said doesn't even apply to you, as I respect you.The reason I made this thread, is because if there is one thing I cannot stand is a hypocrite. Most right wing fundies are hypocrites, and I find it sucks that they believe in the same God as me. I get so pissed that these people are "spokesmen" for Christ views, when it is clearly not.If right wing fundies are hypocrites, they should be called out on it, just like gay liberals who want to abolish religion from our culture, and read the constitution wrong.I will say this once more. I lie in the middle. I am open minded.And now some answers to some of your direct questions and comments. Again beberry, I have to say that I greatly respect you, and your opinion, the way you talk and express yourself is wonderful. I like you. But I don't know how you can say you are following our debate and then claim these following things about me:"You will not give us the consideration that perhaps there really isn't anything wrong with us."I never said there was, in contrary, I said the opposite, I said there is some thing wrong with all of us, I will take the lead in that respect."I want to enjoy the exact same rights and priviliges you enjoy under the law; not in your church, but only under the law."Do you realize that the Canadian government is trying to pass a law, that will take away churches tax free status if they do not agree to marry gays in the church? I've said it a thousand times already, it is my own personal views, and not my religious views."That's all I want, rat. Equal treatment under the law. Why is that so difficult?"Very simply, it is not equal, if were equal then the involved partys would be of opposite sex. There is a clear and distinctive difference. This view can be for your benefit, but you will never see that. I've expressed myself in great detail about this thought. I am doing the best I can."I used to take you for a pig-headed fundie bigot,"You have labeled me, and treated me as such, but you being as nice as you are, have not been harsh with me at all.You have called me, and labeledme a bigot, you and a few others in here. I hate that word, I really do, and I do not want to be considered a bigot. So I am search myself deeply to see if I really am a bigot.Wikipedia says: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.I am not intolerant.Wikipedia also says: Bigot is often used as pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged or proven to be false, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant mannerIt has not been proven to be wrong, at least not to me yet. I am also tolerant, I have started a few threads already to give people a chance to change my mind. Maybe to you or others, but that is maybe because you yourself are a bigot in reverse to me, and my beliefs. Which btw, I am not talking about religous beliefs.So I am not a bigot. Thank you so much for that comment, that is why I respect you greatly.
I look at myself in the same mannor. The truth is, I don't know. I see how it has affected certain areas in NYC, and I would not bring my children into those areas. Its Gays gone Wild down there, and it sucks. They are not making a good impression on me, that is for sure.Having said all that from a non-religious view, I will add this about my religious view of it. You say: 1. I am not convinced what you do sexually is a sin, the bible says it is though. You can twist it whatever way you want.
2. I do not know if it would lead people away from Christ or not. It just might bring people to Christ in some weird way, who knows.Listen, the bible says judge people, and you too will be judged in the same way.I am not judging gays, I don't even really know if it is wrong or not. The bible sure says it is a sin, and for myself, I feel if I was gay, I would be sinning. Yes, seeing 2 woman together is so dam sexy, as long as they don't look like men, but when I see it, I still feel like there is something wrong. I am not ashamed of my sinful desires. I cannot change who I am, or pretend to be someone I am not.
Yes 2 guys kissing or having sex, grosses me out, as did all the gays who made advances on me.
The 2 lesbians who lived right next door to me for 9 years, and were my best friends parents, where I spent many nights over there, had a very apparent hatred towards men, and it manifested itself in my friend, and he was screwd up from it. Is this any different from a straight marraige?
He was loved by them, he was treated well, and he was screwd up. We all accepted him, and his parents. Never said a word about it.I am rambling, because I have so much to say, and it seems every time I open my mouth on this subject, I will be attacked. There will be many replys to these comments, and I bet some won't be pretty.But my point is that I fear God now, and if I was sinning, I would want someone to care enough to speak the truth in love and try to stop me from doing it.I fear God because my faith goes beyond just faith, I feel something now. Before that it was just faith, and I was a different person.So to me, I ask myself, is it possible that God could get mad at this nation for all this crap that is going on? That is not limited to gays, but fundies as well.
I don't know the answers, but I am just as mad at right wing conservatives for sinning, as I am at gays. Let me correct myself, I am not mad at the person, but I am mad at the sin.Maybe I am just quacking up.

No, someone hacked your brain into thinking I claimed to be a fundie, and gay marraige is not a word to me. Saying I am against gay marraige, is like saying I am against aliens. Does this help you to understand how I feel about it?There are people who hate God, and there are people who just don't believe in it.I find the hatred from both sides (liberal/conservative/whatever) replusive. It just plain sucks.Go ahead, hate me now.

Yes, crash, I know all that.

I don't know how to put this into words. I do not feel something is wrong with you, or any gay person. You have a desire, and you want to fulfill it. Fine. But the word marraige, is another story. No matter what anyone says, it takes a sperm, and an egg to make a fetus. "It is that natural process, whether evolved or designed that is my base for thinking that only a man, and a woman together for life makes up the word marraige. Especially if we evolved.I know what your going to say, and that is that there is many sterile people who cannot have babies. But 2 things, many so called sterile people have had babies in their faithfulness to God, #2 if sterile people cannot reproduce, isn't there some kind of natural selection going on there, that we are interfering with?I am all for civil union, or whatever name you want to give it. But there is a clear difference between the two.Tell me, if 2 woman get divorced, and they had adopted a child together, who is the father? Which brings me to the next part of that story, and that is, I decided to leave the city, and move to the country, to be free from all that flaming gay crap, crime, being a terrorist target ( I knew that 30 years ago), and just to get some elbow room, and breath fresh air.So I get this customer, a gay couple. They call me up and tell me to come over so I can get paid, and lo and behold they are having some kind of gay party with like 30 men in speedos, listening to 70's disco, doing drugs, and hanging all over each other. And here I thought they were a nice couple, just to themselves, having respect for straight people who may possibly get offended by there sexual preference less than 1 mile from my house.WE also had 2 other gay couples in our current neighborhood. One was 2 older gentlemen, who kept so to themselves, you never heard from them, which was scary, and then 2 woman who seemed to be so angry at the world, that they could not function even in the simplest of association meetings.There was no exuse for that. Most everyone that lives here was either from the city, or still lives there and comes here on weekends. Most people from NYC are tolerrant of gay people, we grew up with it. There is no "gay bashing " going on here.There was one other couple, who seemed to function normally here, one was a doctor, and the other a decorator or something.I did work for all these couples, so I had more than just a passer-by knowledge of them.So I do not believe that the behavior I saw in the city, is \limited to the city, and as it becomes more widely accepted, it will continue to grow.Of course I realize, that it is not all gay people, as I pointed out.I also realize that the straight equivalant to that, strip clubs, red light districts, is not good either. It is also becoming less torlerable, and a lot of strip clubs are being shut-down. Not sure, but my beliefs were not religious driven. But even if they were, I don't think that you can sit there and say that what you believe to be right, is any more right than what "religious" or "God fearing people" believe to be right.It's a moral issue, and everyone has a right to think what they think.
Even if they are wrong about it. You can't tell someone that it's their religous views that they are forcing on you, because it really just doesn't matter where they get their views from in the first place.Where do you get your morals from? Science? TV? Your gay partner? life? What makes your morals more correct than anyone elses?Change takes time, and over that course of time, you must prove yourself to be worthy of that change. You can't change the past, you can only change the future, and name calling from both sides, will not accomplish anything.Just loook at what it did to the relationship between me and you. I was saying from the very begining that my views were not based on religious one (not that it should matter) but I was labeled a fundie, and all that.MY views about gays developed over a long period of time. At one point in my teenage years, I was all for gays and their rights. I would stick up for them when my freinds would put them down. Thats the way I was raised.IT was my observance, and close relationship to many gay people that led me to this decision, not some scripture.REading the scripture only reinforced what I had already felt. for whatever thats worth. Actually it means nothing, sonce there are probably scriptures that I do not agree with in the NT, never mind the OT. That is why I say I do not completely know if it is a sin or not. I wish Jesus would come right now, and let me know, really. I have been wrong before about things, and I will be wrong many more times in my life before I die. I don't think that people of different races is the problem. I see the whole world as one human race. So I don't believe in different races. I see the problem of different upbringings. I know I am in one of those situations. I am white male, and my wife is hispanic, and there are cultural differences that can create problems in our relationship. I don't think its right that you blame this on society, what will happen to that poor woman. What will happen to that poor woman is 100% the fault of your friend.His unhappyness is the fault of soceity, or his ability to cop with it.

Hopefully they would have already tried to give back tot he earth and multiply.Who was it in the bible that had a baby at 90? lol Maybe.
Does natural selection include ways of thinking? Look, the main difference between gays and straights is that no matter how hard you try, a man cannot get another man pregnant, that has to mean something. Thats the thing that makes me think the way I do.To me, a family is all about trying to make one, having one, and then caring for one. There is something special about a child that lives in a happy home, that has his/her natural mother and father.This may or may not be fantasy land I'm talking about, and statistics will say that this is not the norm, but it should be the goal, and it should represent who and what we are as a race of beings.It represents how we survie, how you came to be, and how we will continue to live on.It's not a choice, like a sexual preference. Its the way to continue life. Doesn't life mean anything anymore? Do we not respect life, and our ability to multiply?Are we going to rely on technology to govern our core base of thinking? All this technology could be gone in a heart beat, and then we will be standing with our thumbs up our asses, or a penis if your gay (j/k, lighten up ) and then our natural instincts would kick in. What are our natural insincts? Do they not account for anything? That sucks, really.I can relate a little, I was a country boy at heart growing up in NYC. I hated the city, I felt like I didn't fit in. There was a bit of anger involved. I am not, I pointed that out, buy saying of course I know it's not all gays.One thing you should know about me. I know I am not perfect, but what I strive for in my life, is to not pre-judge anyone. 100 Italilans could rip me off in my business, and the 101st one, I would not treat any differently than anyone else, he would recieve a fair chance.That is what believing in God is all about. Forgivness.
How can I expect to be forgiven, unless I forgive?Does that mean I shoul accept gay marraige? Or just accept gays?One would argue that if I do not accept gay marraige, then I do not accept gays, but I have outlined why I feel the way I do in this post pretty clearly, and it is not some predjudice, bigotted, religious reasnoning. It is just who and what we are. How we survive from one generation to the next. There is reasonable doubt, but I can only speak for myself. Many other supposedly bible experts would say that God does consider the act of being gay a sin. That doesn't make you any better or worse than any other sinner. But it doesn't allow us to say its ok to sin either. Faith and fellowship should be one of positive support, and striving towards being Holy, and then forgiving when we screw up.If Christians made being ok acceptable, then we might as all be smoking pot on Sunday morning, and then saying its ok, then expect Gods blessings in our lives.Thats the thinking behind that.But what I was really saying from that statement from which you responded to was that people have a right to believe whatever it is they want to believe, and you cannot say that someone is wrong for doing it, just because his/her thoughts come from science, or religion, or whatever. Thats freedom in my mind. I do not agree with that. We need to as a people try to figure out what works for us as a people, and what doesn't.By your way of thinking we should make all drugs legal, and raise the speed limit to infinity. Any other thing that could be consider moral, then the government should take its nose out of it.I don't even see the point of me not thinking gay marriage as a marriage, as being a moral decisions anyway. I just don't think its a marriage, just like I don't think that vanilla tastes like chocolate.It goes back to what I was saying about reproduction before. It just ain't. I don't have a problem with that. I also think that it is an entirely different issue. One does not choose to be black. I do not apprciate the comparason, and I bet that many black people wouldn't like it either. hehe, your funny. you said that, then you said this: Then you go one to say that gay marraige should be allowed.I'm confused.
And remember, I don't really think it is a moral issue with me.
It's not about what is right and wrong, it's about what is, and isn't. Your right, I shouldn't have said that. But all I was pointing out was that maybe some more people might accept it better if there was some sort of change in behavior. Again, this is not meaning all gay people. Wait a second there.Your either gay, or your not. Don't tell me he is bi-sexual, because if he was, he would have found a woman for himself that he could love for the rest of his life, and a woman who would accept him as bi-sexual.He made a big mistake doing what he did.I like nascar racing, and growing up in NYC most people didn't understand it. They did not like it, and most Northerners will despise anything that the rest of the country is into.So what do I do? Stop watching nascar, or remove the bumber stickers from my car?Hell no, I like nascar, and I will do what pleases me, regardless of what the society around me thinks is right. They can all kiss my ass.I would even go out with girls of different nationality. I don't give a crap what courty your from, if your hot, then your hot, I would try to find the girl of my dreams no matter what people around me thought.They can again, all kiss my ass. Who's going to holding my hand when I am grey an old? Society? or my wife? In my line of thinking, it is more than just love. It's the continuation of a race of humans. You can't make that a small issue.I am being fair.

And you haven't really read my posts, otherwise you wouldn't have said that.Please take some time to read all my thoughts in this thread, and the other in the great debate, then if you have something constructive to teach me, then I am all ears buddy.

I am 40 years old. When I was a kid, there was gay bashing in NYC.It is not like that anymore. There is not much Christian bashing unless you are in a gay arena. There are many Christians in NYC. My wife still works there, and there are many great churches there.I didn't move too far away from the city.

You are another person that just does not understand where I am coming from. You are choosing to take out all your agressions on me for no good reason. Fine, be that way if it makes you happy.The thing in Cananda did happen, and they tried to make it a law, did you read tha article? I do not have to say my bad.Also if you read my OP, you aould understand that I am actually sticking up for gays, and putting down conservatives, but I guess you can't see that through all your prejudice, can you?I think an apology is in order, otherwise we can just consider you prejudice from here on out.The way you talk to me, I will learn nothing.

Oh brother, very constructive.
I have read yours, have you read mine? ok. Stop right there. I do not feel like I am on moral high ground. I have expressed over and over that I may be wrong, and that I consider myself equal with everyone else on this earth. retract that statement please. Really? even if it goes against your own? Can you and I start a new political party called the anti-party?
I am serious. Please re-read my thoughts on this. I do not think it is wrong, I think we are all wrong. It's not about whats good for us or not. It is about what is, and isn't.

I hate hypocrites, and I hate prejudice. If I have a hidden predjudice, I want it out and gone. I want to be free. I feel freedom in the forgiveness that the Lord has given me, and his grace. But in order to be forgiven, I must forgive, so I must get rid of my predjudice. http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S126945.PDF

hahaha, your joking right?Page not found - Astrology BayThink about what you say, before you say it.I have been in many fights for being who I am, so I can relate.
I have been put down for my hobbies and what I enjoy in life, because people where I live could not relate to it.

If being gay was not a choice, I am truely not sure if this would change how I feel. I have done a lot of thinking about it, from 2 stand points.First stand point is from a non-religious view, and that is if you are born gay, then I guess the whole thing would be ok, really.Second stand point, is broken in 2, from a religious or God fearing view. That is if we are born gay, then God made us that way, which could mean one of 2 things. He either wants us to be gay, or being gay is a sinful desire, just like all other sinful desires, and he doesn't want us to let our sinful desires rule our lives.Either way, since nothing in science is ever proven, I don't think you could ever prove that you are born gay. So where does that leave us?I don't know.*edit*
I hit submit before I was done, lolNo, I do not feel being gay is the end of the human race.I am saying that it represents it though. It's a matter of disrespect of the very process that brought yourself into existance.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 01-13-2006 08:22 AM

Can't you condense your replys?
You seem like a crazed person when you do that. Separation of church and state.
off-topic. You are so off here, its not even funny. I almost feel like I shouldn't have to explain it, but I will.Christian bashing was brought into this thread, not by me. Go back and read.Those fundie websites are POS, and I do not even agree with them. One day you might actually realize that I am not a fundie, or a gay basher. If you were paying attention at all to my comments over the last 2 years, you would know this. And that is why I say you have a predetermend notion about me. Oh well. Outside in the open, where everyone could see.
OMG!!!LoL.

I didn't go back and read my own posts, but I don't think I ever said that the Cnandian governament as a whole was responsibile for this idea. My point was that it was being tried, and as you can see from the article, it didn't make it.