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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 297 (240769)
09-06-2005 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Monk
09-06-2005 2:16 AM


Re: FEMA
Again the unusual defense of Reps and Bush. Hey I agree that there were a host of issues that were missed by Dems as much as Reps, but that does not magically let the Reps (who are responsible) of the hook.
The Bush administration would know they couldn't push that forward. Their ties to big oil, Haliburon, etc. There is no way the president or congress would, even with majority Republicans, stand against the Dems attack on an appropriations bill for levee repair. They would know that the Dems would successfully kill the bill in the media by claiming it to be an appropriations bill for big oil).
This seems to be BS. How could the Dems stop it? You say they could go to the media and say something? Say what? What on earth have they said, or could they say, that would change a majority Rep vote in Congress?
That is on top of the fact that there would be no reason for Dems (at the very least within that state) to turn it down or vocally advocate against it. That would be money and protection for them!
But even if you put aside politics, surely someone would have this info at the New York times editorial staff? Why weren’t there any liberals in the news corp asking the administration about NO during news conferences? Why?
Could it be that its because the media has been so passive in recent years, afraid to touch this administration for fear of reprisals, that it was unwilling to ask questions about it?
Could it be that news has become more or less infotainment anyway, and so the hurricane was not a real issue until it hit? But in contrast to your statement, I did hear people asking about resources at the dome... unfortunately not to anyone important and that could answer the questions definitively.
Can't we and "they" be "us" on this one?
All political spectrums get hit on this. However that should not make it as everyone in the same boat. This means there were a lot of ineffectual people and systems in place. The people and systems need to be identified and removed.
The person who was in the white house, should be held responsible for the incredible lack of foresight and management coming from that sector. The sooner you can admit that, and place blame as it falls there, the more real your position will seem.
Otherwise it looks like you are saying that because some Dems did some bad things some Reps should get away with doing some bad things.
How about for once, we don't allow people and systems that do bad things, from getting away with it?
(AbE: I should add a note about the "political realities" you mentioned. It was the Republicans during the 1990's which drove and created the atmosphere where any additional spending measures were derided.
The Dems ended up appeasing Rep demands along this line and over their own longheld programs, including medicince, welfare, and social security. Any attempt on their part to initiate new programs was labelled "tax and spend". Remember that phrase Monk? Tax and Spend Democrats?
While I agreed with reps regarding balancing the budget, as well as cutting the pork out of the budget, the idea of no new programs or initiatives (beyond military) as well as cutting necessary ones, was backwards and prevented any real discussion of something as massive as a program to prevent coastal and river flooding.
So technically speaking, if you want to discuss partisan issues, it really was the majority of Reps which constitute the "they", even with respect to the political reality of not fixing NOs levee system.
It seems you are now trying to argue that Democrats are not Tax and Spend at all. Interesting and convenient reversal of characterization.)
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-06-2005 06:23 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Monk, posted 09-06-2005 2:16 AM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nwr, posted 09-06-2005 8:24 AM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 82 of 297 (240771)
09-06-2005 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by berberry
09-06-2005 3:15 AM


Re: FEMA
Berb, did you see/hear that Barbara Bush said that many of the people were unfortunates (poor) anyway, and so they are doing all right through this (emergency relief and all)?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 3:15 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:29 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 87 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:44 AM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 86 of 297 (240786)
09-06-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 7:29 AM


Re: FEMA
"'The good news is - and it's hard for some to see it now - that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house - there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch.' (Laughter)." - president George W. Bush
Sounds like the Bush family is of one mind about this tragedy... everyone will be better off. What a great thing to happen to New Orleans and the south!
Barb laughed when she was talking about the poor being better off. Its nice to see they haven't lost their sense of humor.
Please Bush apologizers, tell me this is making you guys sick as well?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:29 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:47 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 3:53 PM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 91 of 297 (240806)
09-06-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by berberry
09-06-2005 8:47 AM


Re: FEMA
I just can't wait to go down there and drink mint julips on the front porch.
Chiro beat me to the punch. I was actually going to say the same thing. Anyone interested in protesting this fiasco ought to go to Lott's house and say the president sent them. I'd love to see his estate overrun by thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of protestors.
Not because I hate Lott so much, but because it points up how ridiculous and thoughtless Bush can be. He seems to have no clue what effects his words and actions have.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:47 AM berberry has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 109 of 297 (241081)
09-07-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
09-07-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Can we continue to have people in positions of power that work from belief instead of evidence?
I believe this is in part the question Farva/Ben is asking in his thread on science in govt.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-07-2005 12:54 PM jar has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 112 of 297 (241113)
09-07-2005 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tal
09-07-2005 4:42 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Wrong. Everyone believed.
You are living in a very delusional environment. There was a very large and vocal group who denied the claims made. They did not believe. The intel community itself was divided and this FACT is within the Senate Intel Report on Iraq.
It was only the CIA which had certain beliefs and cherry picked data to support those beliefs, and had the ear of the administration over other agencies. The State Department's intel office was openly against the CIA's interpretations, and as it turns out was very right.
In any case, the CIA itself was against any ties between Iraq and 911. So you would be wrong there as well.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:42 PM Tal has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 117 of 297 (241275)
09-08-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tal
09-08-2005 9:31 AM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Not everyone believed he had WMD, just most people in Government(s) with intelligence, including the US.
Again with this bullshit list.
First of all some of these are people you routinely criticize for being stupid, so what difference does it make what they say? Second, not one of these people are making the connection that Bush and Co had made and which Jar was criticizing (Iraq = 911). Third, some of these people are discussing opinions based on info that the pres delivered and stamped as credible from the CIA, which as it turns out was wrong.
Finally, there were more intel agencies than the CIA, which was the only intel agency to back some (and even then not all) of the WMD claims. Other intel agencies (and some CIA analysts) doubted the favoured interpretation of evidence by Tenet and a majority of CIA analysts. The Senate found CIA mistakes to be quite bad, and other intel agencies to have worked properly.
In any case, the CIA did not back any connection of Hussein to 911.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 9:31 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:10 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 154 by gene90, posted 09-14-2005 1:32 AM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 119 of 297 (241393)
09-08-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tal
09-08-2005 12:10 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Yeah, doesn't the truth suck?
Not for me, but it must for you, otherwise you wouldn't have to keep carting out those quotes as if they prove something, and then refuse to deal with the responses.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:10 PM Tal has not replied

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