Global Warming & the Flood

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The shock of the impact would have sped through the ground, resulting in an earthquake of magnitude 5.5 or higher.

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All life within a radius of three to four kilometers was killed immediately. The fireball that formed would have scorched everything within a radius of ten kilometers. A shock wave moving out at 2,000 km/h leveled everything from 14 to 22 kilometers, dissipating to hurricane-force winds that persisted to a radius of 40 kilometers.

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The point is that all of the kinetic energy has to go somewhere.Try this experiment:Lay an iron bar on an anvil and beat on it for a while with a hammer. What happens?The iron bar will heat up. The anvil will heat up and the hammer will heat up. The kinetic energy from your arm swinging the hammer is converted to heat. And nothing moved.Similarly, your idea of raindrops transferring kinetic energy to the earth and "cancelling each other out", is wrong.Take a scenario with only two raindrops on opposite sides of the earth. Their vectors "cancel out" as you say. But they can't move the earth, since they are exerting equal forces from opposite directions. So, where does their kinetic energy go?Heat.Taken as a statistical population, all the raindrops of your forty-day rain will "cancel each other out" as far as movement of the earth is concerned. So, where does their kinetic energy go?Heat.There's no escape. All that kinetic energy has to go to heat, whether it's heating up the atmosphere by friction or heating up the earth by impact.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I just know I'm going to regret getting involved in this but I can't resist I'm not by any stretch an expert on this but I think one good way to prove that the kinetic energy gets converted to heat is that the meteorite and the ground at the impact point are pretty much vapourised. This is why the ejecta from an impact can spread around the world - the iridium from Chicxulub is the most famous example.Actually there might be another problem with the idea of all this water falling from high up in the atmosphere even if we ignore the being boiled to death part.I imagine most people have been in a really really heavy rainstorm at some time in their life. When the rain hits the ground one of the things that happens is it makes a noise - and if it is raining hard it can become so loud you can't hear somebody stood next to you talking.Now if I remember the sceanario being proposed we are talking about a density of raindrops falling greater than anyone living has ever experienced combined with them falling from vastly higher up than normal rain does. Isn't that going to mean that the noise is going to go up - a lot? Yet the Bible doesn't record Noah and family being deafened or walking around with blood coming out of their ears.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Well, not quite. There was a considerable amout of heat that pushed the bullet out of the case and through the barrel. In addition, a considerable amout of energy in the bullet gets turned to heat through friction with the air. So bullets are hot and do heat up once the cartridge is fired. Them casings can get pretty hot too as testified by a young friend of the female persuasion who had a spent cartridge lodge in her cleavage once. IIRC she said something to the effect of "My but that does give one heartburn." Needless to say the day was a bust.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You're nitpicking, and making false assumptions. The fact that energy is transferred around doesn't matter - all of that kinetic energy eventually is transformed into heat via friction. Everything that is set into motion by the impact eventually stops becuase of - you guessed it - friction. Splashing water doesn't in any way lessen the energy transfer. Close, but not quite. ALL of the energy is converted to heat via friction. If it wasn't, the ball would continue moving and bouncing forever. You seem to think that I'm talking about shifting the Earth from its orbital position. That would be bad, but that wouldn't happen here. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about 31,694,485,109,760,000 metric tons of matter striking the Earth at a speed of 7 meters per second. It wouldn't move the Earth at all (the Earth itself is obviously far more massive) but every last Joule of energy would be converted into heat.A pebble falling from the sky about the weight of a raindrop wouldn't feel much different from a raindrop. Very little energy. But if you drop a MOUNTAIN with a mass of 30,000,000,000,000,000 tons onto the Earth, it would leave more than a little crater.Your problem is that you lack an understanding of the physics of thermodynamics, and you have trouble realizing that we are not talking about a global monsoon. You can't scale a rainstorm up to this level and expect it to feel like a rainstorm! The fact that it's water doesn't mean it will imapct with any less energy than the same mass in stone or metal. It doesn't scale that way! Megatons of kinetic energy DO explode on impact! All of that energy is converted to heat, water or not! You aren't carrying this far enough. Yes, one object will cause onother object to move - but that object will rub against other objects and slow through friction, just like your billiards example. The second ball moves from the impact until it has turned all of its kinetic energy into heat via friction. Water is the same as any other material at this scale. All that matters is mass and velocity. Every Joule of that energy will be converted into heat. The amount of heat we are talking about would vaporize the Earths oceans several times over.Go take a physics class. Please.

Eventually, all of those moving objects stop due to friction. This results in heat.And we arent talking about moving the Earth. Nobody here is that dumb. We are talking about the kinetic energy released by that much material moving at that much speed impacting the earth and being converted to heat via friction. That is ALL.

We've been reading your posts. You haven't been reading physics books.You understand vectors and the transfer of kinetic energy very well. What you DON'T understand is that it is friction that stops the objects from moving. Try dropping a bowling ball from a really high place. The kinetic energy doesn't move the Earth - it STOPS, and moves the material around it, which also eventually stops due to friction. This means every bit of that energy is converted to heat in short order.We aren't talking about two billiard balls hitting each other. We are talking about millions of gigatons of energy being released upon impact. The Earth doesn't move. Friction converts that energy into heat. If it didn't, objects (and the rain we are discussing) would continue moving forever. Obviously that doesn't happen.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.AIR RESISTANCE IS A FORM OF FRICTION!And in my example, I took air resistance OUT of the picture by using the terminal velocity of the raindrops - the speed at which the air resistance overcomes any additional accelleration from gravity. That's why raindrops from freaking ORBIT are only hitting at 7 m/s.All I am talking about, all my calculations take into account, is the impact of that much material hitting the earth at that speed. It DOES release that much energy. It HAS to. You can't handwave it away by saying that the "Earth would just move a tiny amount." That's not all that happens with impacts! When a mass strikes the Earth at great speed, energy is released as heat.You are WRONG. You need to read up on physics, specifically the laws of thermodynamics.

The crater is earth-deformation. Deforming the earth is work (displacing mass over a distance) -- lots of work. While deforming, the earth particles will scrub each other quite a bit, too. This will generate heat. Quite a bit of kinetic energy will be used up deforming the air (shock wave). The air particles will scrub each other more than they normally do because of this -- this will convert some of the meteor's kinetic energy to heat. Kinetic energy not used during earth deformation, air deformation, nor converted to heat will be returned to the meteorite.K_meteorite = Kinetic Energy of the Meteorite
W_{earth deformation} = Kinetic Energy of the Meteorite used up as work to deform the earth.
H_{earth friction} = Frictionally generated heat caused by earth particles scrubbing each other
W_{air deformation} = kinetic energy converted to sound waves
H_{air friction} = kinetic energy of sound waves converted to heat due to friction in the air
K_returned = remaining kinetic energy returned to the meteoriteK_meteorite = W_{earth deformation} + H_{earth friction} + W_{air deformation} + H_{air friction} + K_returnedOf course, the meteorite, when the kinetic energy is returned to it will not bounce like a basket ball...it will shatter into small fragments (meteorite deformation, which is also work). The larger fragments will fall and replicate this same scenario on a smaller scale. Some of the fragments will be "dust" which may stay in the atmosphere for quite some time.The point is, though, that not ALL kinetic energy is turned to heat. Most of it is converted to work (deformation and sound).A raindrop impact deforms the earth (moves a few grains of sand), generates a sound wave (deforms the air), and generates the tiniest bit of heat in the process (but not ALL the raindrop's original kinetic energy is converted to heat). The earth returns much of the kinetic energy right back to the raindrop, which deforms very easily (we commonly call this "splashing"). Raindrop deformation is work -- as such it uses up kinetic energy. The tiniest bit of heat will be generated in the process; since water molecules slide by each other quite easily, the heat generated in raindrop deformation will not be anywhere near ALL the kinetic energy returned to the raindrop by the earth. The "splashed" raindrop is really smaller droplets that will replicate on a smaller scale the impact of the original raindrop impact (earth deformation, air deformation (sound), raindrop deformation, heat due to friction, and rebound).The deformations use up MOST of the energy. The friction (heat) uses up the rest. This is why rebounds are never as high or powerful. Each rebound repeats the impact scenario, until all the original kinetic energy is used up in deformations and heat.Once the earth was covered with water, the raindrops would be impacting water, which deforms quite readily (less particle resistance), thus even less raindrop kinetic energy would be converted to heat due to friction and an even greater percentage would be used in deformation -- water deformation instead of earth deformation.Therefore, while there will be SOME (I never said NONE) of the raindrops' kinetic energy converted to heat, it is only a percentage of the kinetic energy -- and that heat energy is spead over the entire surface area of the earth and throughout the volume of the entire lower atmoshpere (sound waves) and over forty days and nights...and is water (which deforms readily) and is nothing like a meteorite impact (which occurs all at once in a concentrated location and is a solid). Not traveling as fast? How so?--Jason

This is all very interesting but you have still failed to get the water into orbit to start with.You need to solve that problem first.in addition, let's say you get this water into orbit - how do you overcome the changes in pressure that would kill everything on the planet?

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The appearance and disappearance of the additional amount of water (4 400 000 000 km3) required to cover the Earth's mountains, which is over three times the amount (1 370 000 000 km3) presently contained in all of the Earth's oceans, would have imposed simply impossible constraints on the pre-Flood creatures of Earth and the inhabitants of the Ark during its journey (Soroka and Nelson, 1983). If that much extra water fell as rain, the pre-Flood Earth had to have had an atmospheric pressure about 840 times higher than it has now and an atmosphere which consisted of 99.9% water vapour (which would, incidentally, have been unbreathable). Further, from a thermodynamic point of view, because 2.26 million joules must be given up as heat for each kilogram of water condensed out of the atmosphere (Soroka and Nelson, 1983), that much water vapour condensing into rain would have raised the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere in excess of 3500 DegC during the time of the Flood. The consequences for the occupants of the Ark in what would have been a boiling ocean and unbreathable atmosphere bear thinking about. Even if the extra water welled up from within the Earth, the temperature of subsurface waters of this volume, because of their closer proximity to the hot mantle of the Earth, would have resulted again in oceans boiling away at temperatures of approximately 1600 DegC. Either way, Noah's geese would have been cooked.

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This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 02-Aug-2005 05:34 AM

This would result in skull deformation, btw. {just pickin'} Yup. I have stated this repeatedly. And friction is a vector force in a direction opposite the object's motion...and causes heat. (I have never said that NONE of the raindrops' kinetic energy would be converted to heat. What I have repeatedly said is that NOT NEARLY ALL the raindrops' kinetic energy would be converted to heat. Well, I am not proposing that the rain drops fall from orbit. I have already stated earlier that "orbit" was a poor choice of word on my part (I need the raindrops to go high enough to transfer geothermal energy to space...however high that is...if that's orbit...that's orbit, but it might not be).This would be just above whichever layer of the atmosphere traps energy, wouldn't it?However, whether the water droplets go to orbit or not, is not the main thing concerning from how high the raindrops fall. Raindrops don't even exist until they condense into raindrops. I have no reason to believe (right now) that the water that went so high condensed into raindrops at that height. I, so far, imagine the raindrops condensing right where they do today...a few thousand feet up. First of all, I am not handwaving. Whenever I realize I am wrong, I try to own up to it...if I feel my admission really affects the discussion. What I am doing is digesting the critiscisms of my idea and trying to defend my position as I best can. I am not always correct.After having studied on the internet some more about the apple-moving-the-earth (a common physics discussion...but I took physics about 15 years ago), I am a bit wrong about "moving the earth." The physics discussions were about the apple's gravity pullin the earth toward the apple an imperceptible distance (but it does move the earth...so would a raindrop). Does this mean that the apple's impact would also move the earth? I am no longer as sure as I once was.However, it matters not. Deformations DO use up kinetic energy. Heat is produced during a deformation, but only a small percentage (depends, I imagine on the materials being deformed) of the energy used to deform is converted to heat.You keep using the term "released as heat"...I'm not sure that is appropriate (it might be, but I am not sure). I prefer to say the energy is "transferred", "used up", or "converted"...how appropriate those terms are...I am not sure, either.In either case, I do not feel anyone has proven that ALL the raindrops' kinetic energy is converted to heat. Although, Crash is coming pretty close to convincing me. If you mean the idea that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, I am trying to keep that in mind.I might be wrong (despite all the confidence I have or had). I have only briefly studied up on deformations...it could be that ultimately all deformations cause all kinetic energy to convert to heat.I do, however, feel certain that your calculation is oversimplified. For one thing, you are treating it like a single event. It is not. It is gazillions of impacts over the entire surface of the earth over forty days and forty nights. The heat energy, whether it be all or only a small percentage of the kinetic energy would be distributed throughout all the surface of the earth, much of the volume of the lower atmosphere, and, after awhile, throughout the flood waters themselves.If my "model" is correct, how does the geothermal energy released compare to the heat generated by the rainfall? I say this, because the earth would probably have a net loss of "heat" and would be one giant heat sink, wouldn't it?How does the energy transfers during condensation of raindrops affect your calculations, if at all?Water evaporates. The flood waters would experience evaporation, too, throughout the 40 days and nights and beyond. Doesn't this cause a reduction in heat? How much? How does this affect your calculations, if at all?Finally, Charles Knight has offered up a "problem" that might become a (at least a partial) solution -- namely, the "nuclear winter" the intial "fountains of the deep" might cause.--Jason

That is interesting.One thing is this is where some of the kinetic energy is being put...soundwaves (does it eventually all turn to heat? Maybe it does...because soundwaves do eventually stop).As far as the ever increasing sound level is concerned, I would tend to think that the sound waves from one raindrop impact would be cancelled out by another. Not all would cancel out, though. IOW, I think there would be a limit to how noisy it could get. I am not, and neither do any other YECs that I know of, proposing that all or even nearly all the Flood waters came in the form of rain, but rather from the fountains of the deep (the initial blasts of which, may have provided most or all of the rain).And, to be clear, I am not proposing that the raindrops fell from orbit, but rather that the water may have went that high. I am, so far, saying that the water vapor and atomized water particles condensed into droplets just where they do today...a few thousand feet up. Not half as much as my arthritic hands regret me getting involved in this. :^)--Jason

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I need the raindrops to go high enough to transfer geothermal energy to space...however high that is...if that's orbit...that's orbit, but it might not be

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That's orbit which is a minimum of 62 miles up - requiring the water to travel at 18,000mph to get there - requiring you to suggest a sensible mechanism that prevents it turning to steam.

Well, actually, the anvil, the bar and the hammer will all deform. The deformation will cause the atoms and molecules to scrub each other and generate heat.My question then becomes does all the kinetic energy become heat given that there is deformation?You guys have just about convinced me that it does, but not quite yet.--Jason

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Finally, Charles Knight has offered up a "problem" that might become a (at least a partial) solution -- namely, the "nuclear winter" the intial "fountains of the deep" might cause.

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Not really because you cannot actually get the water into a place where such an event would occur and THEN you need to explain how you overcome the pressure problem.Then I've got about 6 or 7 other problems relating to basic "impossible to handwave away" physics to put to you.Why you are getting worked up about the complex stuff when you can't answer the most basic questions is beyond me.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 02-Aug-2005 06:14 AM