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Author Topic:   US war crime as free speech issue (help holmes sort this out)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 80 (248153)
10-02-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
10-02-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
Your conflict is between the Geneva Conventions (an international treaty signed by the US and thus part of US law) and Freedom of Speech (a part of our constitution). The conventions are also based on the rights of people, as is our constitution.
Personally I have had the opinion that some ways of conveying a message are {vile}, and that if the message can be conveyed by other means that there is no need for the {vile} method. In this category are words of profanity: they do not add to the message, and I have no moral quandry with prohibiting such forms of message (a distinction between form and content).
Simple pictures of dead Americans, Iraqis, civilians, insurgents whatever, show the carnage of war, and this message deserves to be delivered.
Pictures of people celebrating the deaths of others (whether american or iraqi) do not show the carnage of war, they show the debasement of the people that mock the dead. The question then becomes whether we are commenting on the debased behavior or joining with it.
A very quick and supeficial look at Geneva Convention found
All Types of Amorous Relationships: Swingers, Open and More
dead prisoners of war
Burial of the dead must be carried out individually if possible and must be preceded by a careful examination in order to confirm death and establish identity. The burials should be honorable and, if possible, according to the rites of the religion to which the deceased belonged. Graves must be properly maintained, with adequate record keeping, so that they may be found later. (Convention III, Art. 120)
Cremation can take place only for imperative reasons of hygiene or if required by the religion of the deceased. Ashes must be kept until proper disposal is possible. (Convention III, Art. 120)
And I can't think of treating dead soldiers or dead civilians any different.
in fact there is this section too:
civilian immunity
Civilians have special protections under Convention IV, Protocol I, and Protocol II.
They must be treated humanely, without discrimination based on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or other similar criteria.
Violence to life and person including murder, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture are prohibited.
Outrages upon personal dignity, including humiliating and degrading treatment are prohibited.
Sentences and executions without a judgment from a regularly constituted court and without benefit of the standard judicial guarantees are prohibited. (Convention IV, Art. 3)
See civilian population, women, murder, rape, torture, discrimination, civilian property, places of worship, cultural objects, grave breaches, and indiscriminate bombing to start with.
Does one have a right to commit atrocities?
Of course this administration thinks that the conventions don't apply to them, just the rest of the world.
We can't pick the rights to use or discard without discarding all of them.
Not sure that helped.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 6:07 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 11:29 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 80 (248205)
10-02-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Silent H
10-02-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
This would be a totally different topic, but I would be 100% opposed to your position. The concept of "vile" is subjective and not a good idea to be using for censorship, even if messages are kept intact. With this reasoning Mark Twain should be edited, and the hatchet job networks do to movies should be part of the normal editing process. In effect 1984's dictionary is a doubleplus good idea.
The language Twain used was not vile in his time, so yes there are subjective elements involved. That does not excuse using terms that are offensive without need to convey the message. I have always felt you can get your point accross with more effect by creative use of the language rather than just going for the gutter.
This does not solve the problem of change of usage with time, so I do agree with you to some extent there, I just can draw a distinction between {nigger=black} and {nigger=inferior} (coupled with knowing that for those where {nigger=inferior} they now use {black=inferior} -- the opinions have not changed with the words)
The problem is when you have two competing rights in contention (the essence of a true moral dilemma), as appears to be the case here, and where you draw the line.
To me it is easier when I distinguish between the form of the message and the content of the message, thus the rights of people to be treated with dignity in death wins over the need to use dead bodies to form a message that can be said in other ways. Prohibiting the gratuitous use of dead bodies does not outlaw statements like "the only good {fill-in-the-blank} is a dead {ibid}" no matter how much I disagree with such statements.
okay?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 11:29 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 3:01 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 80 (248208)
10-02-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
09-29-2005 11:11 AM


american terrorism
Let me add another dimension to this issue:
Showing dead "trophies" and people being shot (one video I saw last year, soldiers continuing to shoot a wounded person) is no different than the videos by Zarchowi's cell.
Looks to me like we've lost the "war" on terrorism because now it is within the US ranks.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 09-29-2005 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 3:06 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 80 (248257)
10-02-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Silent H
10-02-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Moral Quandry (also paging Iraq War supporters)
if you mean when there are competing rights then its okay to prohibit communication (where the message can still be said in another way) so as not to violate the other person's rights, then I think I tend to agree though it would be on a case by case basis.
That was the original context yes?
if one can communicate in a way that is less offensive
Outside of the above context, this would be more of a moral decision by the individual eh?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 10-02-2005 3:01 PM Silent H has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 53 of 80 (253836)
10-21-2005 6:38 PM


Seen the latest?
Afghanist an's Karzai condemns Taliban body burning (click)
Afghan President Hamid Karzai demanded a quick investigation on Friday after the release of video footage appearing to show U.S. soldiers burning the corpses of two Taliban fighters in Afghanistan
The U.S. military -- already under fire for the handling of Afghan detainees and desecration of the Koran in Guantanamo Bay, which provoked angry protests in Afghanistan -- has ordered an inquiry into the footage shown on Australian television.
"We in Afghanistan, in accordance with our religion and traditions and adherence to international law, are very unhappy and condemn the burning of two Taliban dead bodies," Karzai told reporters at the presidential palace.
After the burning, according to the TV report, a U.S. psychological operations unit broadcast a propaganda message on loudspeakers to a nearby village thought to harbour Taliban fighters, taunting them to retrieve their dead and fight.
"Where are the human right groups? Why are they not raising their voice about this brutality? We call upon all of the Islamic countries to come up with a united reaction on this," he told Reuters by satellite phone from an undisclosed location.
This is another violation of the Geneva Convention.
Where is the public outrage from our elected officials? Specifically the leader of this country?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

  
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