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Author Topic:   YECs, how do you explain meandering canyons?
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 5 of 43 (169308)
12-17-2004 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by YEC
12-17-2004 7:43 AM


Re: A simple answer.
Later in time the debris dam broke suddenly and the water from the lakes rushed through the meandering channels and made the wider and deeper.
Sorry, if that had happened we would see much more extreme erosion on the outside of the bends, since the rushing water would exert enormous force on the outside walls as the water changed direction suddently. We don't see that. Your scenario is falsified.
the original poster has an even more diifficult problem explaining how the slow rising land formed meanders.
By following the template of the pre-existing shallow meanders. This is called "incised meanders". Well-known phenomenon, observed in many places in various stages.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 9 of 43 (169356)
12-17-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by YEC
12-17-2004 10:37 AM


Wnat???? Reference please.
Any fluid dynamics textbook.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 21 of 43 (170044)
12-20-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by TheLiteralist
12-20-2004 9:14 AM


Re: Walt Brown's Grand Canyon Stuff
Now, here I go out on a limb. How much merit would there be to the idea of (assuming a breached dam scenario) the breached dam waters creating meanders due to the backwards tilt of the land? Seems that the proposed Grand Lake waters would have a general downhill flow (due to it being a breached dam), but the backwards tilt might have been a somewhat countering force to the general flow of the Grand Lake waters.
Not much merit. Water flows downhill. Slow moving water on a near-flat plain produces meanders. A "backwards tilt" and fast-moving water might produce changes in direction (which would be accompanied by severe undercuts and erosion, which we don't see, on the outside of the direction changes) but it wouldn't produce the back-and-forth pattern of meanders, nor would it produce 180o changes in direction in a short distance

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JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 36 of 43 (183464)
02-06-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by TheLiteralist
02-06-2005 3:45 AM


Re: A simple answer.
Are you sure the Colorado river carved out the canyon? How do you know this?
All of science is the best explanation that fits the known evidence. The best explantion for the Grand Canyon that fits the available evidence is that the Colorado River carved it; this is so well established that we might as well call it an established fact. Of course, it could have been sculpted by incredibly powerful three-headed polka-dotted alien beings, and that fits the evidence as well, but nobody takes it seriously. No hypothesis about the Grand Canyon is worth considering unless it explains something that "carved by the Colorado River" does not and explains absolutely everything that "Carved by the COlorado River" does at elast as well.

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 Message 35 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-06-2005 3:45 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-06-2005 1:37 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 38 of 43 (183557)
02-06-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by TheLiteralist
02-06-2005 1:37 PM


Re: Three-headed polka dotted aliens
Are there any formations or features of the Grand Canyon that the "Carved by the Colorado River" Model doesn't explain well or at all? Is there anything that is "mysterious" under this model?
This isn't really my area of expertise, but ...
I don't know of any features the the CBTCR {grin} model does not explain. Many creationists don't much like the fact that the CBTCR model rquires that the Colorado Plateau be uplifted slowly, by plate tectonic processes, as the canyon is being carved. That is, the top of the canyon is crrently above the headwaters of the Colorado.
Also, do traditional scientist have any other ideas or models about the origin of the canyon besides the "Carved by the Colorado River" Model?
Not everyone agrees about some details or the exact timing, but there's no serious contendor for an alternate theory. The flood-runoff theory is a non-starter, even given the lack of evidence of the existence of such a flood at all. The near-vertical walls of the Grqand Canyon show that it was carved slowly while the rock was lithified (that is, hard), unlike the approximately 45 degree walls of the "Grand Canyon of the Toutle River" (carved by runoff after the Mt. St. Helens eruption, and often cited by creationists as "proof" that the Grand Canyon could have been carved quickly). See the pictures at the end of Young-Earth Creationism and the Geology of the Grand Canyon: Part 2: The Grand Canyon. (Also the amount of material removed at the Toutle Rive is hundreds of thousands of times less than the amount of material removed to form the Grand Canyon). The pattern of the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River basin, with branched side-channels and several 180-degree turns, is totally unlike the pattern of flood runoff seen in the Channeled Scablands.
Events in the Vicinity of the Grand Canyon of the Colorado River and Evolution of the Colorado River and its Tributaries, including Formation of the Grand Canyon: Geologic History of the Grand Canyon present the mainstream theory pretty well.

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