Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Teacher Fired for Disagreeing With Literal Interpretation of Bible
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 48 of 78 (436977)
11-28-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
10-12-2007 3:06 PM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
saying you would sue is almost as though someone had attacked you.
Actually suing anyone for saying what they feel puts a complete clamp on freedom of speech.There should be respect for everyone's opinions and yes you should make an effort to be able to defend what you feel is true and yes you should be free to disagree -respect for someone's opinion doesn't mean you have to agree -just agree to disagree and keep the exchange of ideas open.It's ridiculous that anyone should feel forced to keep their opinions to themselves. Forcing it down someone else's throat with sarcasm when you're in a teaching position is not great though.
The Virgin Birth is central to Christian belief. Jesus being just a human philosopher demolishes the power of the cross. IMHO, anyway
Yet you have never explained or supported that position.
If I may be so bold... get rid of the flood and accept evolution over millions of years - that destroys the gospel entirely.Yes, the plot thickens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 10-12-2007 3:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-28-2007 11:08 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 50 by nator, posted 11-28-2007 11:27 AM Beretta has replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 51 of 78 (437163)
11-29-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by nator
11-28-2007 11:27 AM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
get rid of the flood and accept evolution over millions of years - that destroys the gospel entirely.
Really? How so?
What did Jesus come to earth for?
To die for our sins.
What else?
To conquer death.
What have sins and death got to do with Jesus and the gospel?
Well it goes back to the Garden of Eden where everything was perfect -no sins - no pain - no death.
Then Adam and Eve got it into their heads to do things their own way -don't listen to God, we're much cleverer. He said don't eat off that tree but there's no good reason for that that we can see so lets do it anyway.So sin entered the world (don't worry what God said) and with it death. God cursed the world with death because of sin - from that moment man started to die.
So what did Jesus come to earth for -to conquer death.
"For through one man came death" and Jesus is described as 'the last Adam' since he conquered death by rising from the dead.
If Adam didn't sin, there would be no death. No sin and no death would mean there would be no need for Jesus Christ to come to save us.
My point: Without Genesis, there is no call for the gospel and Jesus Christ later on.
My next point:If sin brought death into the world, then death is not normal and right, it is a curse on humanity -it sure feels like it, especially if you're close to it.
Evolution maintains that there was death hundreds of millions of years before man.
So is death natural or is it a curse caused by man?
Maybe when man disobeyed God, that's when God put out the 2nd law of thermodynamics and that is why everything is running down -not getting better and better as evolution maintains.
Survival of the fittest is just another way for man to be selfish - we're just trying to survive so lets not bother about anyone else.
Evolution also breeds racism -other people groups are inferior -they're behind on the evolutionary scale -do they deserve to survive? Hitler had the answer to that.
But the Bible says 'all mankind is of one blood' -so does that mean all men are related through Adam and all the subsequent geneologies as laid out in the Bible? Maybe our genes had loads of variety back then and you just got varying degrees of melanin pigment and different people went in different directions and propogated their own dominant color and racial variations by being geographically separated.
Way back in Australia, men used to kill aboriginees to send their skulls to natural history museums as examples of missing links.(even though they were alive and not missing)- is that what evolution causes?
Even if evolution wasn't such a cut throat business, is it true???
Personally (and yes I'll get to the reasons) I can't believe it.
People who believe in theistic evolution haven't thought it through.
Edited by Beretta, : Incomplete

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 11-28-2007 11:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:20 AM Beretta has replied
 Message 53 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:24 AM Beretta has replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 54 of 78 (437202)
11-29-2007 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
11-29-2007 7:20 AM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
I'd like to know the specific, detailed reasoning why you believe the following Boble verses are invalidated if alleles in populations change over time:
My point is either the Bible was inspired by God and is the Word of God or it is not. If it is not and the flood and everything else is not true, then we can pick and choose what to believe. Then you might as well go for evolution.
Genetic variation works, natural selection happens, evolution as in one kind of animal or plant changing into a completely new kind has never been proven. Life gives rise to life. Chemicals do not give rise to life except by intelligence, information and organization. A frog in a blender will make frog soup and you can wait for millions of years and apply heat and energy any way you want, it will not reorganize into a frog or any other kind of life despite the rich chemical broth available. An intelligence has to have created life -spontaneous generation has already been disproven.Why do we imagine it worked long ago and far away if we can't even produce a simple cell now with our intellect and scientific ability and our knowledge of what is contained therein - never mind the cell's completely amazing ability to reproduce itself.
It's all very nice to love God (and your neighbour) but if you can't even believe him, what's there to love?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:20 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by JB1740, posted 11-29-2007 9:05 AM Beretta has replied
 Message 60 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:08 PM Beretta has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 56 of 78 (437207)
11-29-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by nator
11-29-2007 7:24 AM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
Er, racism and the idea that other groups are inferior was present long, long, long before Darwin came along.
Yes and the concept of evolution and survival of the fittest propogates it.
We see it right there in the Bible, in fact. Plenty of slavery, racism, hatred of women, hatred of gentiles, bloodthirsty genocidal cruelty done in God's name by his chosen people, etc. are in the Bible.
All very human which is why the ten commandments were given - to show us what we should be doing so that we can see why we need a saviour when we keep screwing up. So God allowed rampant evil to be destroyed, why can't he, he made us.By the way, he's coming back. In the meantime, men kill men because they don't believe God, men perpetrate evil of every description.We have choices and the time is coming where either we pay or Jesus Christ pays for us -you choose. No-one is innocent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:24 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 11-29-2007 11:02 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 61 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:20 PM Beretta has replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 57 of 78 (437212)
11-29-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by JB1740
11-29-2007 9:05 AM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
why did your deity see to it that all evidence for it was magically erased
It wasn't erased, it's right there in the sedimentary rock layers -billions of dead things washed there and petrified in the sediments -unless you believe in evolution then it's millions of years of evolution.
If it is all the dead things from the flood, then there's nothing left for evolution.
Some people don't like to believe in the worldwide flood even though so many cultures have a flood legend... and then there's all those dead things...
Some people don't want to believe in God either but he's still there whether you choose to believe it or not -that's the nature of reality.
Evolution ....creation ....evolution....creation????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by JB1740, posted 11-29-2007 9:05 AM JB1740 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by JB1740, posted 11-29-2007 10:10 AM Beretta has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 62 of 78 (437969)
12-02-2007 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by nator
11-29-2007 7:20 PM


Re: The Plot Thickens A Bit
Please explain how, "the change in allele frequencies in populations over time" is a racist statement.
The ToE is a philosophy with racist connotations -it is not a fact . If it's not true (which of course I believe) then it is a destructive philosophy in the hands of some.
So you agree that racism is all throughout the bible, correct?
Human cruelty is throughout the Bible, yes.That's because we have free will and choices that we make. The Bible is history as it happened, not necessarily God's will, just a rundown of what happens when we do what we want to do instead of doing things God's way.
Except that the rape, pillage, slavery, genocide, and murder happens before, during, and after the ten commandments are given to Moses
Yes, that's history and it isn't a very nice story in that sense but the truth is not always nice.The people that did what God told them to do were not cruel though. It's like a history lesson of how well we do on our own -the ten commandments is how things should work, not how they did work.
Oh? Like in Ireland, The Balkans, and the middle east?
Religion kills because of people. Christianity is not a faith that advocates killing.I'm sure you must know what it says about loving your neighbour etc. - unfortunately people are the cause of their own misery because once again it doesn't suit them to do what God says -like the stories throughout the Bible.That's why the Bible says repent (turn away from doing it your own way). It's religion that kills because people listen to the pope and the imam and the cult leader instead of listening to what the Bible says is the cure.
There are some religions that advocate killing -like Islam "turn or die" and yes, people kill in the name of their religion but that's not doing what God said to do, so we can't blame it on God if we choose to do what's wrong.
Also in contradiction to evolution, the Bible says that man has been created separate from the animals - we have a spirit that can communicate with God -that's something the animals don't have.
Anyway my point is that believing that you are just an advanced animal and that the Bible is not true allows for relative morality. Everyone chooses their own way -there are no rules; if evolution is true we just have a consensus on what is right and what is wrong and that changes all the time. God doesn't change however and his law is perfect and it's written in our consciences which is something we were given by God so we have the ability to know what's right and what's wrong. Even if we don't listen, we know.
Darwin and Evolution didn't usher in a whole new age of genocide
You're right -it's just a new religion that tells people that what God wrote is not true and we are just animals so we shouldn't feel guilty if we behave like animals. That's not to say that evolutionists are any worse than other religious people -it's just that belief in evolution helps people avoid God and ignore the Truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by nator, posted 11-29-2007 7:20 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Vacate, posted 12-02-2007 10:20 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 64 by Chiroptera, posted 12-02-2007 12:43 PM Beretta has replied
 Message 65 by nator, posted 12-02-2007 4:53 PM Beretta has not replied

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5626 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 66 of 78 (438181)
12-03-2007 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Chiroptera
12-02-2007 12:43 PM


Re: This is off-topic, but....
The theory of evolution is a description of a phenomenon, nothing more
The phenomenon is described relying on micromutational change. Macromutational change is believed to have occurred not because it has been observed but because it has been extrapolated from the micromutational evidence. Micromutation is provable, macromutation is inferred.Apart from that, macromutation is not at all well supported by the evidence.
As Gould stated -
"The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1.Stasis -they appear in the fossil record looking pretty much the same as when they disappear;morphological change is usually limited and directionless.
2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and fully formed."
In short, the outstanding characteristic of the fossil record is the absence of evidence for evolution.Yet, it is 'believed' despite the lack of evidence.
As a result of this lack of evidence, Gould and Eldredge proposed a new theory to deal with that fact -punctuated equilibrium.
Punctuated equilibrium achieves its purpose by making the process of change inherently invisible.
the theory of evolution states that that the many species that we know derived from a single ancestral population several billion years ago through this process of differential reproduction due to inherited physical characteristics.
but the evidence fails for the most part to support this contention.
There is nothing in this description that labels some actions as "good" or other actions as "bad", nor does it imply any sort of ideology or philosophy.
That's true but nonetheless the theory allows people to imagine that there is no God in which case who makes the rules? We do and let's face it, we're not good at that as evidenced by the state of this world and its rapidly declining morality.Since the theory is not well supported by the evidence -it is a philosophy.
This is much like Newton's theory of gravity is simply a description of a phenomenon.
Except the theory of gravity is not a philosophy since it is fully supported by the facts. We cannot call it a philosophy by any stretch of the imagination so it belongs in a completely different category.
In present day North America, white supremists are Christians. They found justification for their racism with their interpretation of the Bible.
I agree and that is why so many cults spring up all over -they interpret according to what they want to believe, not what the Bible actually says.For example, theistic evolutionists happily interpret 'day' to mean millions of years and fit it into their philosophy. God gave us brains and languages, not to confuse us but so we can be personally responsible for the choices we make. Days has to mean days -otherwise nobody can be held responsible for not choosing the correct philosophy.Even Hebrew scholars, though they might not believe the Bible personally, have stated that the clear implication of the Bible is that the world was created in 6 literal 24-hour days
Nor can we "blame it on evolution" when we do wrong.
But teaching that philosophy as fact without presenting the evidence for creation/ID as an alternative philosophy, leaves people with no choice -they think its fact and that science has proven it and their lives are affected by it.Philosophy affects people.
Most religious societies are simply the result of a consensus of what's right and wrong.
Agreed -taking what they want and leaving out what does not suit them.
God doesn't change however and his law is perfect....
Which is an opinion that seems to be confined to those followers of God, and hence isn't an unbiased opinion.
No less than evolution is an unbiased opinion since it is based on a philosophy.
Okay. So I know that abortion is right; preventing a woman from terminating her pregnancy is wrong. I know this. Is this because God wrote this in my conscience?
No, I really don't think so -society justifies it by opinion -if you think of an unborn baby as a separate life and really give it some thought, I do not think that an unseared conscience can come to that conclusion. I know however that many people believe it. I believed that consensus opinion before I realized that evolution is a philosophy and God is a very real possibility. Now I feel differently. My conscience tells me that I justified that belief by listening to people' opinions on the matter.
evidence that is so overwhelming that one can only refuse to accept it by perversely sticking to one's religious beliefs
Unless the evidence is actually underwhelming at best and the religion that one sticks to is evolution blinding one to other possibilities that actually, in my unbiased opinion make more sense.
The data simply show that the events recorded in the first two chapters of Genesis (as well as the chapters describing a global flood) did not happen
Unless one looks at the fossil lack of evidence for evolution and is not blinded by the uniformatarian assumptions of geology and looks at so many other things like the human brain and the eye and all the things that make gradualism look suspect at best.
If God did indeed write Genesis, then, yes, I'm afraid that what God wrote is not true.
Though we cannot prove Genesis neither can we prove the big bang, abiogenesis and so many other so called 'facts' of evolution -its an alternative philosophy and a closer look at the Bible shows many provable facts of history supported by historical accounts as well as by archeological finds. Not to mention the alignment of nations that currently want to annihilate Israel exactly as foretold in many chapters of the Bible where the end times are mentioned.
All the nations prophesied as attempting to wipe Israel out are Muslim nations and these things were written centuries before Mohammed started the Muslim religion.An alliance primarily of Russia and Iran with many other Muslim nations taking part with one main intention is happening right before our eyes.They will try to annihilate Israel -of that I have no doubt.Who could have known these things but One who is outside of time and can see the beginning as well as the end?
and it's possible that this sort of emotional avoidance of issues that you find unpleasant might be harmful
Is there any possibility that the emotional avoidance may be just what evolution is all about. It did replace creation and people theorized about an old earth long before radiometric dating with all its inherent assumptions conveniently came to the fore and apparently proved what had already been decided by men that clearly hated the Bible. I'm not speaking of Darwin -in that sense he wasn't such a good Darwinist himself, he had some serious reservations about his own theory while others ran with it and built on it.
As a last thought on the matter, everyone on this site calls for evidence for ID and seem very opposed to evidence against evolution being held as evidence for creation but it is precisely the evidence against evolution that most strongly points toward creation and it is that evidence that leaves evolution open to serious question.
-
-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Chiroptera, posted 12-02-2007 12:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by JB1740, posted 12-03-2007 10:07 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 70 by AdminNosy, posted 12-03-2007 10:13 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 71 by Chiroptera, posted 12-03-2007 10:26 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 73 by Rahvin, posted 12-03-2007 11:19 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 78 by Chiroptera, posted 12-04-2007 3:26 PM Beretta has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024