Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?

My sister-in-law is a JW; the only one in the family. Are you seriously suggesting that she has this True (since you capitalised it) inner peace, believing that an imminent Armageddon will bring eternal death to her husband, children and parents?

It hasn’t come up, because my sister-in-law, in all our regular discussion and correspondence, has never claimed to have more or better inner peace than anyone else. You have some information as a basis for your inference that I don’t? OK, that’s your belief.Since you responded to my question, I’ll reply to your OP, which is perhaps what I should have done in the first place. I am inclined to agree with Robinrohan, that there may be no such thing as True inner peace. My own experience is that in the times I’ve been most in turmoil, I learned the most and grew the most. And I cannot equate any kind of inner peace with the hope of resurrection, since as you have said, it is hope only, not assurance! If I understand you correctly, this inner peace is based on whatever happens, God is in control and there will be a happy ending. I cannot see how this would not apply to many other Christians and non-Christians.From your post to Rahvin Your evidence of believers in your religion coping better than all others appears to be anecdotal. Are there any statistical comparisons that support your position, for instance, of comparative mental health, or self-image?

A small point in view of all wmscott's claims, but in fairness, I understand that JW's do not believe in hell. Just death and eternal oblivion.

Hi Ned,I think I've seen such studies also, but as Rahvin pointed out, showing that a religious focus improves some qualities of life doesn't support Wmscott's claim that JW's have found True Inner Peace.Where I was leading to, is that there is some research that indicates the opposite.
This link
and this oneindicate statistical connections between the religion and the incidence of mental disease, surely the opposite of inner peace in particular and happiness in general!

Hi Wmscott,
Thanks for your reply, which focuses on my understanding of what you call True inner peace to the exclusion of the other issues raised.You stated, Then you indicated that this absolute proof depends on accepting your interpretation of the Bible. So no, that is not absolute proof. In any case, my point was that no individual, according to your earlier reply, can be certain the s/he will be among those resurrected. And nobody said or implied that it was. There is still no indication that it is a better kind of peace from that experienced by people who believe differently.You indicate that this peace is based in
1. Certainty of eventual resurrection (based entirely on your interpretation of the Bible)
2. The support individuals receive from the holy spirit.And I would again point out that these are not exclusive to your religion.In support, you cited the resistance of Jehovah’s Witnesses to the Nazi regime in Germany, and their resistance being broken in concentration camps.I would agree that consistency and bravery in the face of severe intimidation is a great thing, and that it was demonstrated by many people of your religion. I would not necessarily agree that it proves anything about a special True inner peace.As background, it is my understanding that the International Bible Students as a religion had less to lose that the main Christian religions in pre-war Germany. Not that that excuses the leaders of such churches toeing the Nazi line, but it does put it into perspective.
Similarly, it is understandable that members of those churches largely accepted what the church authorities said.However, it seems to me that you discount the organised resistance from some clergy and laypersons of these religions, such as those who wrote and promulgated the Barmen declaration. They also had everything to gain by keeping a low profile, and the added inducement of simply trusting their church leaders to decide for them, but also obeyed their conscience to take a hard and dangerous path that in many cases also lead to their imprisonment, torture and death. That they were not united by faith to me makes their actions even more remarkable.Am I correct in understanding that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe all pastors and clergymen to collectively represent the Man of Lawlessness? And would this characterisation include Dietrich Bonhoeffer?From your message 50 An acknowledgment that you were pronouncing on something you knew nothing about would have been appreciated.Finally I mentioned that your evidence was entirely anecdotal. Accordingly I would be interested in your thoughts on the sites I referenced in post 66 and how these findings relate to True inner peace.
Thanks for your attention, Firebird.

Thanks for your reply, Wmscott. So, not even close to absolute proof! Every single one of them? As Rahvin (I think) pointed out, a single atheist who behaved similarly would destroy your argument. You do have a way of reading more than has been written, don’t you? Or is this another joke? Yes, I said that accounts of concentration camp survivors are anecdotal, now show me where I said merely. On the contrary, I acknowledged the courage shown, and it is unfortunate that you haven’t done the same for the non-JW who suffered. However, anecdotal evidence still does not carry the same weight as a comparative study! Firstly, whyis this a ‘class of people? Where is this supported in a literal reading of the Bible?From This site :
Bonhoeffer's theologically rooted opposition to National Socialism first made him a leader, along with Martin Niemueller and Karl Barth, in the Confessing Church (bekennende Kirche), and an advocate on behalf of the Jews. Indeed, his efforts to help a group of Jews escape to Switzerland were what first led to his arrest and imprisonment in the spring 1943. His leadership in the anti-Nazi Confessing Church and his participation in the Abwehr resistance circle (beginning in February 1938) make his works a unique source for understanding the interaction of religion, politics, and culture among those few Christians who actively opposed National Socialism, as is particularly evident in his drafts for a posthumously published Ethics
He was hanged in the concentration camp at Flossenbrg on April 9, 1945, one of four members of his immediate family to die at the hands of the Nazi regime for their participation in the small Protestant resistance movementBut, according to your religion’s interpretation So, because he was an ordained clergyman, Dietrich Bonhoeffer clearly fits the description of the man of lawlessness? Now that is sad.

Hi Wmscott,Thank you for your detailed reply.You have raised so many issues that I will list them and only respond to those marginally related to the thread topic. If you would like me to address any other, please open another thread. After all, this forum is not supposed to be for proselytising.What I will try to address:
1 Your evaluation of the research
2. The inherent bias in the material — and in your response
3. The relationship (if any) to True inner peaceWhat I will not address:
1. The role of elders in the JW community
2. The unrelated contents of Dr. Bergman’s web page
3. Financial contributions from JWs and chandeliers
4. Child custody cases No, neither paper did. The bias was obvious from the heading (in Spencer) and the rambling content (in Bergman). I also noted how dated the research was.The trouble is, almost everything on the web is heavily pro- or anti JWs.Firstly, I have a problem regarding psychiatric research; where people are concerned the variables become so great that it is very hard to draw conclusions. And in this research, there is more than a probability of researcher bias. Your points about the number of JWs in Western Australia are noted; the point about readmissions not being taken into account, however, applies to the general population also.In short, nothing on the two web sites convinces me that the JW religion attracts unstable people, or that people become prone to mental health problems by being JWs. I also note that you are still drawing unwarranted conclusions — do you have any evidence that this is the reason the research has not been repeated?And yet again . . For someone who complains of the author’s editorialising, you are very free with your own conjectures. Do JW’s actually call on people with the intention of getting the better of them? It delights me to see a creationist and believer in the literal truth of Noah’s Ark appeal to mainstream science as an authority! No it doesn’t. You are trying to compare chalk and cheese, and justifying it with the supposed link that some JWs participated in studies which suggested positive effects of religious beliefs — not participation in your religion. There are simply no grounds for comparison of such unrelated research.In fact, since the issue of how many JWs there are in the population can only be resolved with all this insider knowledge, the only way to effectively rebut such research is for a JW to do a comparable study. If positive benefits for your religion could be established, that would provide some support for the assertions you have made in this thread. And since preaching is such an important part of your religious life, I must ask why such a study has not been attempted.A claim to something as specific as True inner peace must be backed up by more than anecdotes. There has to be a perceptible difference in health, attitude or behaviour, and wouldn’t this be demonstrable by properly designed research?Finally, I ask you to be a bit more objective in your writing; omitting words like hateful and bigoted would add some credibility to your perspective. Please consider how insulting some of your assertions are to people who do not share them, and how little such posts demonstrate the serenity that would accompany True inner peace.All the best, Firebird

Dear WmScott, Once again, please try to get it right. By my own words, I don’t claim to have inner peace, true or otherwise. By your own words, you claim to have it. I have no definition of what you mean by the phrase, and no reason to accept that you possess it. What Rahvin said. In addition, obviously, a group has something that keeps them going — the group dynamic itself! How do you distinguish between the effects of group support and true inner peace? Exactly why factual assertions can not be supported by historical accounts! Right, so you support the assertion that the man of lawlessness is a class, by appealing to your belief in the coming presence of Jesus Christ — another doctrine of your religion. This is circular reasoning, which can only be validated by this coming presence — which I understand has missed a few appointments already! Can’t I persuade you to give up on the guesswork and address what is written? I didn’t forget, just didn’t know. Probably the best thing about this thread has been learning about Bonhoeffer, so thanks! The assassination plot failed, true. Have you anything to support that divine intervention caused the failure? Bonhoeffer also assisted Jewish people to leave Germany safely. Wasn’t this political activism, and why was it successful? Does this apply in any way to Dietrich Bonhoeffer? If not, why quote it all? That sounds very virtuous and all, but how is Theocratic war strategy purely a moral stand? I thought bearing false witness (aka lying, aka not telling the whole truth) was not an approved practice.From here
"We acknowledge Bonhoeffer as a true martyr because his whole life became an authentic witness to Christ and to God’s justice. Bonhoeffer himself recognized that his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler was problematic for Christians who tried to live by the Sermon on the Mount. He recognized that his involvement in the plot could only be justified in a very desperate situation when few options remained. Yet it was an action that arose out of his discipleship and commitment to Christ."My understanding of the justification or theocratic war strategy is that it also relies on circumstance.Cheers, Firebird

Hi Wmscott, I hope so, but doubt it. The reason I drew your attention to the articles was to focus the discussion on something with a basis of sorts, rather than ongoing assertions based on your religion’s current truths. A classic example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You assert without foundation that JW’s getting the better of people happens all the time. I could provide many examples of the opposite. There is no point in continuing along these lines without a factual basis, otherwise it’s just assertion and counter-assertion. Also, you have sidestepped my point that you do not know that this happened — in fact there are many ways that unwanted callers could annoy me without getting the better of me. More sidestepping. Your beliefs do not address my point — that you either accept mainstream science as an authority or not. It is illogical to cherrypick the findings that support your religion’s current position and wave away the rest. Well you have not shown that. Which study or studies do you refer to? What percentage of participants were JWs? What level of JW’s were they? How do the studies address the issues of True inner peace as opposed to the very general positive effects of religious beliefs? But it is your claims that we are discussing! And they need to be supported! Also, last I heard, the peer-review process for publishing papers neither asks nor considers the religious affiliation of the author, just the quality of the article. Anything else would be an Ad-hominem. So, again, without the back-up, claims of True inner peace are worthless. Initially not happy, but hopefully I would consider the situation as a whole. I have a healthy awareness of my own and my family’s fallibility! There is no need at all for sugar-coating, all you need to do is what I’ve asked for so many times — stick to what is written and avoid guessing! You are not inside anyone’s head. Therefore you do not know their emotions. If something is untruthful, you can simply say so and substantiate your claim; much more effective than ranting and raving about why you think they wrote it! But how would an inner-peaceless person know?
All the best, Firebird

Hi again Wmscott,Here’s another one I missed from your post: So you say. Chapter and verse?Also, from your most recent post to Rahvin: This is nonsense. Your revised OP (message 3) asks Yet now you want to discuss what your faith makes available to it’s adherents, which is not clearly related to this something that everyone allegedly wants and needs, or why would applications of it vary? You have also shown no interest in any of the alternatives suggested in reply to your question.Unless you can demonstrate that you really intend to stay on topic rather than preach your religion without any basis that we can agree upon, I’ll drop out also.Cheers, Firebird

Hi Wmscott, OK, I must have missed it. As definitions go, the problem I see is that there is no real difference between type 2 and type 3, except that type 3 is unbreakable.
Your assertions that this robustness is necessarily based on the Bible, is just that — assertion. Here comes the circular argument again. JWs have true inner peace because they live by biblical truth, and we can see that it is true inner peace because the group’s beliefs are in harmony with the Bible. meditation ,
yoga and Music therapy all have research linking them to inner peace. So your connection to a particular interpretation of Biblical integrity falls as flat as the walls of Jericho!
No it doesn’t, it indicates distance. If this is what we are to understand from the Bible, why doesn’t it just say so? Or say class of men instead of man of lawlessness? And is there any evidence that it happened as predicted? closely followed by . .. As I’m not a JW, my conscience would overrule the Bible’s prohibitions against, and of course I would lie. However, if I were a JW, I would obey both the Biblical precept and avoid the guilt of adultery with the political world by becoming involved with politics. Naturally I would ask God to help the Jew, After all, I wouldn’t want to fall into the errors of those who helped Jews to flee from Germany!So why do you need Theocratic War Strategy ? Do JWs have a different dictionary as well as their own Bible? Lying is telling lies, for whatever purpose!

Hi Wmscott, No, of course you wouldn’t. I already said there is no ground for discussion here. Please do not twist this into agreement; it is not. but soon after you write Obviously one of these statements is incorrect; they are contradictory. Which do you want to support with evidence? Unless you do this, again, no point in continuing. Please support your assertion that coping skills and other positive effects are related to inner peace.Cheers, Firebird

Hi Wmscott, Doesn’t prove he experienced it; could have transmitted it. Same as above. Establishes nothing, even if you accept Isaiah as prophetic of the NT, which I do not. Yes, but perhaps inner peace is not required for perfection! Where has any atheist agreed to this assertion? Unsupported. No reason to suppose that God bestows inner peace via organised religion. Discussion has little in common with preaching. Particularly, preachers are poor listeners, and you have demonstrated this attribute abundantly. Since you already know it all, enjoy your inner peace, and I’ll look forward to some real peace too.Goodbye, Wmscott (Sound of front door closing)

Hi Watson75, Assuming that you mean a person with hope would have a higher level of peace than one without it, no, I have not seen this demonstrated. And those religious denominations who have a certainty rather than hope, wouldn’t they have even more inner peace? Where has a link between ‘levels of inner peace and resolve on the face of death been established? And who instituted tests and pass marks for religions? My understanding was and is that personal growth and maturity is. . . personal! It seems you are easily impressed. And you replied, after restating your ‘‘unbreakable points: So, if points are unbreakable, why wouldn’t there be cold, hard facts to support them? Otherwise, they are breakable.And you share wmscott’s tendency to attribute motive just to argue, it seems Yet, in message 139, you say It’s difficult to see you in that way, I must admit. However, I will commend you on restraining your shock when wmscott repeatedly responded to things I hadn’t written!

Hi Wmscott,To start at the end . . Reading over the thread, yes, it can be read as if I’m picking at everything. And still, that’s not the whole story. Basically our main difference is that all your arguments are based on two premises that I do not accept:
1. that the Bible is the literal inspired word of God, and the main way His will is made known
2. That the JW interpretation (or current interpretation) is the only correct way of understanding the Bible and living according to God’s will.That being the case, all that followed are assertions on your part, and reasons why I cannot accept them on mine. Additionally, you appeared uninterested in anything which could not be turned to the direction of your argument, which was not to actually find out what alternatives non-JWs had to your definition of inner peace. I have offered an alternative viewpoint, articles that point to quantifiable health and happiness from causes other than True inner peace and you have not addressed these. I have shown that at least one individual demonstrated outstanding courage and adherence to principle (Rahvin also did, citing the Pope) and you handwaved the examples away, asserting that only group courage was relevant, and others might just be strong individuals. So since there are strong individuals who can manage without both group support and the True inner peace of the only Bible-based religion, your OP question should be answered. There clearly are other sources of strength. A good exit line. I am happy to discuss religion and the Bible with my JW family member and acquaintances, to examine literature that contradicts my beliefs, and sometimes learn something.Can you do the same? Here is an article I found after I last posted, that contradicts your quote below I’ve posted this belated reply after reading your response to Rahvin (message 170) in which you said and Given how often your religion has got it wrong, as in the example above, how can you assert your (current) interpretation of scripture as proof which should convince us?Wishing you the best of everything in any case, Firebird