You Guys Need to Communicate! (thoughts from an ex evangelical Christian)

Isn't always interpretation that brings division? I mean, when we read Paul's epistles, a difference in interpretation seems to have caused a lot of enmity and strife. This poor tradition has carried through today. And even when we read Revelation, John talks about the Churches of Asia. There are many different characteristics given of these churches, where God judges them on their merits and faults. If the Revelation passage is true, then there is a multitude of churches who are misinterpreting the message of God. The problem is, even interpreting the message of that passage is subject to interpretation.As for moderates and fundamentalists, its all ambiguous and cryptic. Who is a fundamentalist and who is a moderate? That would seem subjective. To some I'm a fundamentalist, to others, a moderate. I guess it doesn't really matter what man thinks about me anyway. I agree. I have my opinions on who interprets the Bible correctly, but that doesn't mean that I have the esoteric knowledge of knowing that with all certainty. No one owns the title deed to the Bible. I guess all we can do is ask for guidance and extract whatever meaning we can from the message and then to give meaning to it through human experience. I see it the opposite way. I think man made traditions have attempted to usurp, whether by design or happenstance, the authority of scripture. I am more of a Sola Scriptura kind of guy, but at the same time, I do know what you mean. If you mean that tradition in this sense means the human experience, then I certainly agree. Without us going about our daily lives and living the good, bad, ugly, beautiful, just, unjust things of this world, all the scriptures would be meaningless passages.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I think you have a good observation here. From Harris' point of view I understand what he is saying as well about fundamentalism. Amongst Christians, we sometimes refer to the hard-nosed beliefs as "legalism," a focus on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. But from what little I have read from Harris, he seems to believe that all religion is essentially a dangerous dogma. If indeed this is what he believes it incredibly ignorant as it hyper focuses on the negative aspects of any given religion while it overlooks all of its positive attributes. For most people, the Bible is all they have. Take for instance missionaries who take the gospel to the remotest parts of the world. Ingigenous people from these parts of the world probably know nothing about the various traditions. All they have is the gospel in its purest form without bias, without it being tainted or convoluted from the countless interpretations of man. There is something that strikes me as very innocent and pure about that. Surely one could make the argument that all sorts of bizarre and counter intuitive interpretations stem from a parent church where it synthesizes in to some wild vagaries or interpretations. But that's only indicative of man's folly, isn't it? To place blame on a Sola Scriptura mentality, or the scriptures themselves, might be like blaming a baseball bat manufacturer for someone using their bats inappropriately to commit a heinous murder. Is it the manufacturer's fault or the murderer's? Couldn't we then extend that argument to the scriptures? Oh, no, I could by no means think of myself as well versed in Hebrew studies. It interests me and I want to learn more about it, but I'm quite aways out still. I'll take that as a compliment, so, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have so very far to go. I understand what you're saying. For instance, the tradition concerning Isaiah is that he was sawn in half. We don't know that for sure, but tradition tells us that he was martyred. There are a couple of allusions to it in the Bible, one where Jesus gave His famous rebuking of the Pharisees in the Temple, and the second from Paul in the book of Hebrews. The same traditions concerning martyrdom are said about the early Christians, like Peter and Paul. So in a sense, I appreciate the traditions to a degree, but even Jesus warned about such things to the Pharisees."So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

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And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! -Mark 7:5-9At the same time, I think there is some balance necessary. Because you and I both know people who opt for a Mr. Potato Head god. What is the best known feature about Mr. Potato Head? His interchangeable parts, right? I think you and I both know people who invent their own god. They take the aspects of a certain religion or tradition that sounds appealing to them and apply it in the best way they see fit. What a convenient interpretation of God, huh? Isn't that tantamount to idolatry? I think so.So maybe a healthy balance is needed, where neither complete tradition or complete non-traditionalis views are asserted. Well, I liked your post.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

What exactly makes for brainwashing do you suppose? What is the criteria for brainwashing? When and how does someone move from listening to personal belief in liturgy to full on brainwashing? Does it really matter either way? Is it so central to the premise that it would justify leaving the faith completely? What did you like about being a Christian that would have held your affection? Were you someone born in to the Church that became disenchanted with life's faade? In other words, is this an act of teenage rebellion or is it actually a well informed decision you have made? Is your beef with Young Earth Creationism or is it with Christianity? It sounds to me like maybe you are a little tired of the religion of religion. Totally understandable. It seems as if you are a seeker of Truth®, but that you aren't sure what it is and where to find it. Is that accurate?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

That seems to make sense to me. That was a good passage and I'm willing to bet that it is an accurate description for many people of that era.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Buzsaw is clearly speaking about God's signature as a metaphor for its spiritual aspects. Why is that stupid? Would you say that a Muslim is stupid for believing the Qur'an is the only source of true inspiration? Would it be stupid for a Hindu to believe that the Vedas are the only source of inspiration?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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What exactly makes for brainwashing do you suppose? What is the criteria for brainwashing? When and how does someone move from listening to personal belief in liturgy to full on brainwashing?

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That's kind of my point though. Are parents essentially brainwashing their kids when they teach them values? Kids are impressionable, right? Or are we just teaching them how to live in this world just as our parents have done for us? What exactly makes for brainwashing? I doubt that anybody intends to "brainwash" or to "indoctrinate" their kids, even if they are actually doing it. I don't think people make a point to do this because of its negative connotations. If one parent talks to their child about Jesus, is that any more of an indoctrination process than telling them that such a person never existed? Where is the line of demarcation? Who gets to decide what is brainwashing material and who doesn't?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

In a sense, yes. Lets not debate the validity of the Bible for a moment. Lets just examine what the Bible says on it. Christians are not called to be only hearers of the Word, but doers most importantly. I think what Ana was saying is that any one that hears the Word of Truth and rejects while knowing full well that it is the truth and opts to reject it, is no doubt sinning.That's not to say that only backslidden Christians are in danger. The Word makes it quite clear that most of us are not going to be judged for the things we don't know-- rather we all will be judged for the things we do know. David in one of his Psalms (can't remember which, otherwise I'd source it) directly implies that to sin means that we have knowledge that we are doing something wrong. This seems to make sense because if a severely retarded person accidentally kills an infant by smothering him/her, did he sin because he killed the child? Though it is horrific, he did not have any malevolence in his heart. Would God judge him for that? Probably not. Almost certainly not. Sin is when we know damn well what we are doing is wrong but we do it anyway. And you don't need to be a believer to know when you are doing something wrong. You can be a straight-laced atheist and still know when you are sinning, if you'll extend the word "sin" to mean knowingly and willfully doing something wrong. Yes, he knew the gospels. In fact, I think it was TL that quoted him saying that he had no problem with the message of Jesus, but that it was His followers that turned him off to Christianity. He was also the man who said (you may have seen the bumper sticker) "An eye for an eye makes us all blind." He was right. No one is absolved because of their good works. Imagine a man who did many good works, like fed the poor, took care of the sick, visited those in prison, but also hacked his family to pieces. Is the court going to say, "Well, but he did do all those nice things for the community, so.... let's let him go." No, because those good works bear no reflection on his sin/crime. You don't necessarily have to believe in the Gospel to know what is right and wrong. Again, you aren't going to be judged for things you don't know. You will judged for what you do know. I believe some people do harden their hearts to it. Think of a neo-Nazi who meets a really cool person of another race. He may feel this twinge that perhaps his philosophies are skewed. He then has this inner struggle within him between what he wants to believe is true and what is true. In this case, the man probably derives some sort of purpose to his life by hating others. At the same time, his purposes are ultimately unfulfilling for him. Its a matter of time before he realizes the folly of his ways. Some people never let that go and others do. Its the same with God in my opinion. The neo-nazi feels justified in hating the people of other races because some of them act the way he dislikes. And it gives him a sense of justification. But when he meets people of other races that react to him with kindness, he's completely confounded. He doesn't know what to do because this war within him is raging. Its the same with God. A lot of people have resolved to despise God because of bad things that happen in the world, or because some Christians have been less than Christian with him/her. They feel justified in saying, "Serve a God like that! Ha!" And they feed off that emotion. But when they meet someone who embodies the nature of Christ, they are confounded. When they see the good in life, they are confounded. And there is a war inside of them.I won't pretend to know your thoughts, but I can say for my own life, this is what I've discovered not only about myself in relation to the world and God, but also in the lives of others who had to make that conscious decision to meet God in the middle. Hope my two cents helps. I also hope this is what Ana was trying to portray and that I didn't misinterpret her words.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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No one is absolved because of their good works. Imagine a man who did many good works, like fed the poor, took care of the sick, visited those in prison, but also hacked his family to pieces.

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The point I was making was that doing a million "attaboys" isn't going to detract from that one "Aw shit," if you'll pardon the expression.... and the expletive. But I think I know what you're saying. I believe it was Peter who came up to Jesus exclaiming (paraphrasing) "These people are driving out demons, but they don't do it in your name." And Jesus responded (paraphrasing again) "Don't stop people from doing good just because it wasn't in my name. Everyone that does good does this unto Me because I am love." And you know Peter, it probably took him a few years to understand what Jesus meant by it.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis