You Guys Need to Communicate! (thoughts from an ex evangelical Christian)

Thanks for a strong and candid OP, Ophir. Welcome to EvC.I am not a Christian. But I recognize a true story when I read one.To have your innocence is not to know what you have. Innocence is only understood by those who have tasted more.We each have our time in the paradise garden. The world smiles, simple and new.We each become aware of mysteries. More exists than appearances had led us to believe. The universe has secrets.We choose to know.We take the fruit into our hands and eat, and banish ourselves from the one perfect place.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Message 8 with interlinear commentary. I'm ready for a book called The End of Clichés. The first one killed off should be any more book titles announcing The End of something. Consistent and intellectually honest like 'speciation is true, but evolution is false'?Consistent and intellectually honest like 'the story of Noah is literal fact, but Jesus didn't really mean for me to give any of my stuff to the poor'?Consistent and intellectually honest like 'Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, but when he comes back to earth next Tuesday after lunch he's going to set up an office in Jerusalem'?A rare breed of consistency, to be sure. The vast majority of fundamentalists defending 'inerrancy' don't read the books at all. They read tracts and memorize the prooftexts and rhetorical points. This creates the superficial appearance of familiarity with texts they know almost nothing about. It often fools the naive.Harris wouldn't fall for it if he talked to more fundies. Maybe he needs a gift subscription to EvC. When what one says is nonsense, how much virtue exists in knowing and believing it?An interesting ethical question to ponder...But the truth is that few anti-science fundies believe what they say. Actions, not statements, tell you what people really believe.There's a reason fundies let scientists do the research and limit themselves to carping about the findings. There's a reason they never actually go looking for those fossil tyrannosaurs with human bones in their stomachs. There's a reason why they visit a research hospital instead of an exorcist when they get cancer.Resisting science is whistling in the dark. Deep down, most of them know this. Declining to take a passage literally is hardly 'ignoring' it. Most moderates I've met read their Bibles and love to discuss anything in it. They aren't afraid to admit when a passage is difficult or even unbelievable.A shortcoming? Some would call that approach intellectual honesty. 'Accept' meaning 'take it literally,' of course. Harris has swallowed whole the fundamentalist assumption: that truth lies in being a letterhead.Small wonder fundamentalists come out ahead when measured (naively) by a yardstick they promote. And, as all thinking people know, anachronism and irrelevancy are hardly compelling reasons to regard one writing differently than another. And, as all thinking people know, it makes no sense to admit the existence of anything subjective in matters of personal faith. And if religion is revealed BS, fundamentalists have it all over everybody. I'm not an authority on religion, but from the standpoint of intellectual content I'd say the writings of Mircea Eliade have it all over the pulpy bestsellers. One thing I believe: with so much distressingly ordinary thought selling books, most of us are in the wrong career.Time for a Judith Krantz thread. She's made the bestseller list much more often than Sam Harris. She's not very 'moderate', but no one can top her intellectual honesty._______Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Thanks for sharing that, anastasia. Looks like Wentz has America's number. And your observation about moderates at the last--an eye opener.

That's just silly, though. Why is he pointing the finger at 'religious moderates' if his gripe is with with an entire society that embraces the ideal of religious tolerance? That's a different, and much more diverse, population. Does Harris show any sign of noticing the difference? I'm still more interested in what Judith Krantz has to say on the subject.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

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Archer:

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That's just silly, though. Why is he pointing the finger at 'religious moderates' if his gripe is with with an entire society that embraces the ideal of religious tolerance? That's a different, and much more diverse, population. Does Harris show any sign of noticing the difference?

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Then it's still silly. On that same basis Harris can blame any of dozens of subsets of the population for his fundy problems.Harris could blame the American middle class. After all, this class is the dominant one numerically. If you want to finger a statistical 'majority' within the culture rather than the culture itself for one of its most characteristic features, blame the middle class--religious and non-religious members of it alike. The argument makes as much sense (not).Harris could blame speakers of English. After all, speakers of English represent a majority within American society. If that society is too tolerant of religous extremism, well, it's obvious that as the dominant group this English speaking population--religious and non-religious members alike--could change things. Let it get off its collective fanny and draw a line. Let the English speakers stop giving those fundies cover!By the same reasoning Harris could blame members of political parties. Or omnivores. Or people over 30. Or heterosexuals. Or high school graduates. Or overweight people. Or taxpayers. He'd be making the same flawed argument.And the stats would look just as good. In each case we could look into the numbers and discover that--lo and behold!--all these groups represent numerical majorities in the population! That would really validate each premise, wouldn't it?'Maybe someone has some figures.' Right. If Harris thinks American society is too tolerant of diverse religious beliefs, let him say it is and let him propose the systematic changes--amendments to the Constitution and everything else--to change it. Or, if he really thinks fundamentalism is the root problem, let him hold the fundies responsible for their own behavior and propose changes there.Those approaches would be logical. Properly acted upon by a perceptive writer, they could fall into the category of informed social criticism.But Harris's case as you present it here is just sophomoric.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

I didn't 'conclude' anything about why Harris says what he says. I took the argument you presented and demonstrated the sophomoric flaws in reasoning using the argument's own terms.The Falwell/9-11 hypothesis is your own. By all means then, let's consider it.We have to hurry, though--before the book has been off the bestseller list so long that it's just a prop under the short leg of the kitchen table.Let's consider a specific case. Lutherans.Two major groups of Lutherans exist in the US: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS).Most observers would identify the ELCA as the 'religious moderates.' Their outlook is ecumenical, they have female clergy, they welcome gay couples, they engage in dialogues with other religious bodies for the purpose of overcoming differences.Missouri Synod? They're the fundies. They have the YECs and the people who think homosexual unions are an abomination. They disapprove of their members having communion in non-LCMS churches. They like home schools and make their kids wear funny clothes.Each group has its own constitution, its own seminaries and clergy, its own publishing house, its own conferences. Missouri Synod ministers do not appear in ELCA churches and ELCA ministers do not appear in Missouri Synod churches. There is no regular gathering at which members of both sides meet.Into this picture comes Sam Harris, bestselling author on the subject of religion, telling those ELCA Lutherans that they are far too tolerant of fundamentalism and that the time has come to crack the whip on those Missouri types.The ELCA Lutherans decide to put the Sam Harris Plan into action. What do they do?___

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Not rejection, Percy. Severe skepticism. It's about the same level of skepticism you would show if I logged on and said a New York Times bestselling author recommends shark cartilage as a cancer treatment and told everyone the idea merits serious consideration.You would be hard put to take that idea at all seriously until I put some beef on that bun. But you'd give me a hearty chance to do it.Same here.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.