The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall

But we don't know that. In fact, Genesis says just the opposite. To make the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil mean that death entered the world you must call God both a liar and a fool.God created a Tree of Life. If death were not already part of this world then that was pointless. Adam & Eve were already slated to die, else why did God fear they would eat from the Tree of Life? But all of those are simply reflections of the much older Babylonian tales, where the lifespans were several times longer than anything even claimed in the Bible stories. In addition, so far no one has ever been able to put forward any evidence for some worldwide flood that stood up to critical examination. That might be interesting if you could present some fossil evidence that supproted your claim of devolution. I look forward to seeing that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We were discussing Genesis. Nothing you posted shows any support for the fact that death was not already part of the world. Well, I do not see any place in Genesis where Adam & Eve sinned. In fact, until after they had a knowledge of right and wrong, of good and evil they would not have been capale of sinning. How can something be a moral agent that is incapable of being moral or immoral?Only AFTER they ate from the Tree of Knowledge were they even capable of morality.And that they had not eaten from the Tree of Life is also immaterial. If there was no death then why did God create such a thing?There is no rebellion in the Genesis Garden of Eden Story.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Paul was well known for playing fast and loose with the facts when it served his purpose, a spinmeister. He may have been trying a reference to the Cain and Abel story, but it is most definitely not anything that is in the Garden of Eden fable. Well, see above. TTBOMK though Pauls writings are not found in Genesis. I don't doubt that you are incable of understanding. It really isn't all that difficult though.Before Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong they had no way of judging which was which. They were incapable of sin, just as an earthworm is incapable of sin.If you read the fable, God does NOT kick them out of the Garden of Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge or because they disobeyed him. He kicks them out because He is afraid that they will eat from the Tree of Life and that now they are like Him, they might also live forever. No where in Genesis 3 does it say that God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, or that death was not also part of the world, or that they were capable of sinning before they knew what sinning, what right and wrong, were.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't doubt that you read such an interpretation somewhaere, but certainly not in the Bible. No where in Genesis 3 does it say anything of the sort or even imply that Adam and Eve were evil. In fact it actually says that they are like Him, Knowing Good and Evil.Genesis 3:22

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I get it from reading a book. It is called the Bible, maybe you've heard of it.A classic example of Paul the spinmeister was the tale of the "Unknown God" where Paul appropriated a convenient local temple and custom as part of his sales pitch. Well first, it is not an issue of my being right or not, it is what the Bible actually says. The rest of the curse is a "Just So Story". It explains "How things came to be". It explains why snakes crawl and don't have legs (something most unusual since all other critters did have legs), why childbirth seems more difficult for women than it does for the beasts of the field, why humans farm instead of simply being foragers and why people fear snakes.Pretty straight forward. Plot device. If God was really punishing them it would make God cruel and unreasoning.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, not at all. What you have shown is that Paul, who can be shown to be a spinmeister and to take things out of context used that interpretation in his sales pitch.But...if you go back and actually read Genesis it simply is not there.Paul may well be pulling his interpretation from Enoch, or First Adam & Eve or even some other scripture that never made it into the Western Canon, but the Garden of Eden tale that made it into Genesis simply does not say that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And that is what I believe we are doing. For there to some Biblical Fall, then there should be some indication of it in the Bible. We know that you have quoted Paul as asserting that, but as has been shown, Paul is either misrepresenting what Genesis says, or refering to some other scripture that was floating around at the time.To support the idea that there has been some devolution since the Fall, you first need to show that there was a Fall, and second show that there was some higher evolved critter than exists now. Those are the things that we are still waiting on.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And it has been shown that Paul is not basing that on Biblical reference. Paul may be speaking metaphorically, or refering to some scripture that was floating around at the time, but it is not supported by what is actually written in the Genesis Garden of Eden story.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, that is NOT what I said. I said that if Paul is refering to the Genesis Garden of Eden fable he is misrepresenting what it says.Paul could well be refering to scripture, but not to the Genesis account of the Garden of Eden. He might be refering to the stories from First Adam & Eve or the Book of Enoch or any of many other scriptures that were popular at the time, but reading Genesis 3 simply does NOT support the concept of a Fall.Fact:Death existed before Adam & Eve ate from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.support:God tells them that if they eat of it they will die.
God has created a Tree of Life which is pointless unless death already exists.fact:Eating from the Tree of Knowledge is not a fall or separation from God but rather makes Adam & Eve more like God.support:Genesis 3:22 "22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."Fact:God did not expell Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge but because God feared that they would then eat from the Tree of Life and become (note the word become) immortal.support:Again from Genesis 3:22;

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First, there the dancing goal posts go yet again. We know that is the story, the fable.Is it disobedience? Yes and no. Adam and Eve could not know that it is wrong to disobey God until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They simply did not know right from wrong.From Gods perspective, He gave an order that was impossible to be obeyed. Well, according to the Bible, they became more God-Like. Genesis 3 shows NO Fall, it is simply not in there. It is though an explanation of why humans are not amoral, why, since we DO know right from wrong we are charged to try to do what is right.The story in Genesis 3 is NOT one of a Fall. It is a "Just So" story explaining the world we live in. That is all it was written to do. It is NOT about a Fall, or original sin, it explains why snakes don't have legs, why men farm instead of forage, why childbirth seems more difficult for humans than for the other animals, why people fear snakes.I have quoted the passages from Genesis 3 and I will happily do so again if needed but you can read all for yourself.Frankly, the Fall is IMHO nothing but a copout. It is an attempt to shift blame from the individual to some critter from long agao. It is saying "It is not MY fault, death came from someone else and they sinned first." It is classic kindergarten playground tactics and while it might work then, it is not acceptable among adults.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Not exactly. The situation was that God said do not eat from that tree or you will die. However later the serpent says go ahead and eat, it is jess fine.The important part is that until they knew right from wrong there was no way they could determine that one set of commandments (and they were not a moral system but simply a statement) is more important than the other. The same issues arises when Eve brings some fruit to Adam. She says, go ahead and eat, tastes great, less filling. Again, until he has the Knowledge of Right and Wrong, there is no way for him to judge which commandment is superior, which should be followed.It is only AFTER Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge that morality, sinning or obedience become possible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And your point is?It does not matter if it is a command or not. Until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they had no means of knowing they should obey it.Edited by jar, : y

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you have no knowledge of right and wrong, you have no way to decide and so follow the last advice given regardless of source.Until Adam & Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge they have no way to tell right from wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We have been over that quite a bit in this thread. No one argues that those quotes are in Pauls writings, just that they are not supportable by Biblical scripture. Sorry, Paul did say that but he is certainly not refering to the story in Genesis 3. Paul may well have been refering to some other story or scripture, maybe First Adam & Eve or the Book of Enoch, but he could not get that out of the Genesis Garden of Eden story.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Not at all. In fact, a plain reading of the text in Genesis shows that if Paul is refering to the Garden of Eden story found there, he is simply making stuff up. He was well known for playing loose with most everything. He simply ignored those laws (circumcision) that stood in the way of his marketing, adopted and misrepresented local customs (the temple of an Unknown God) to fit with his marketing. This is just another such case.There is no Fall in Genesis.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion