The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall

NosyNed suggested that RickB make a new thread of this topic, so, knowing how much you all love to laugh at me, I thought I'd do it as a contribution to the general entertainment.I'll just start by answering RickB's post from the old thread: My point was that recognition of the universal moral law is universal. It's in the Hindu idea of karma. It's in the Tao. It's the most rudimentary universal religious idea to recognize that it's better to be in line with the moral law than against it, since "what goes around comes around" at a bare minimum. The Book of Proverbs, which is a compendium of proverbs from many cultures, and the Tao (as I recall, it's been a long time since I read it) both teach the way to live that is in harmony with the universe, as it were, and that health and longevity follow. Again, this is rudimentary. Religions incorporate it but it is not definitive of them. Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it. As I go on to say as a matter of fact: Can't remember the last time I dodged any bullets around here. As usual I have no idea what the furor is about. Seems people are always getting offended no matter what a Christian says.I've been clear that I'm not talking about Biblical law alone. Biblical law is simply the codification of the universal moral law. All cultures have had their own recognition of this law.As for the Savior, yes, there is only one, and he's what Christianity is about, it's not about living according to the moral law for salvation. Nope. Love to think about it though. It's more the other way around though, thinking about how degenerative processes are brought about by the Fall and sin. Have no idea how it works. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I was talking about both and somehow you are confusing them.The Fall is the Biblical explanation for the degeneration I was talking about, yes, and the conept of the Fall is unique to Biblical Christianity, as even Judaism does not recognize it.But I WAS also talking about the universality of the moral law, which the Bible uniquely tells us we violated. There is no contradiction or confusion if you just keep the topics separated in your mind. Universally recognized moral law, specific unique Biblical revelations about that law and its workings in the human race. No problem. No, and again, I didn't say it is. It's unique to Biblical Christianity.But again, the moral law is universal, though it varies somewhat from place to place and time to time. Of course I would claim that the Bible presents it correctly, but at the same time it is clear that humanity in general has always had a sense of a moral law and a conscience. The teachings of someone like Lao Tse -- I guess I should reread him -- are clearly focused on a law he believes is operative in the world in an objective sense. But there is no need for this confusion. I believe the Bible has the perfect truth about all these things, and I have not said that all its revelations are universally recognized, far from it -- many of them are unique, and the fall is the explanation for the degeneration hypothesis as you put it.But an apprehension of a moral law that governs this universe, though it takes various forms, IS universal.Unfortunately I forgot about this thread and the original posts on the other one so I'm no longer sure of the context here, but if the thread continues maybe I'll catch up.

I just took a look at an online copy and have to say it's really not much like the Book of Proverbs at all. It is about "virtue" though, but lack of desire seems to be the highest virtue, not at all a Western concept. I didn't mean to imply that by being saved from the law we no longer are obliged to obey it. Of course we are. It's just that we can't be saved by obeying it, salvation is a gift of God. We are in violation of the law by nature far beyond a mere overdraft, which implies that we might occasionally be in tune with it, but scripture teaches that even our righteousness is a violation of the law.But let's not get too far off in this direction since the thread is supposed to be about how life has degenerated since the Fall.

Some things are inferred. If we know that the Fall brought death into the world this should be food for thought. There are further hints in the Bible about how that played out in the first 1500 years too, the gradually decreasing lifespans of the righteous patriarchs in Genesis 5 for instance, and of course the Flood, from which God saved only righteous Noah. Put that together with the fossil record and other scientific facts, and reasonable educated inferences are quite possible. Well, the Bible says that all creation was "cursed for our sake" and that the creation "groans in anticipation" of the end of the curse, when Jesus returns. The poor cheetah was cursed for our sake with the same malady we suffer on account of our sins, though the cheetah can't sin. The inference to draw from this is not entirely clear though, perhaps that God had pity on us since if we were under the curse of death we couldn't survive at all in a world of immortal beasts.

I'm pondering starting another one. My answer to RickB above may clarify my thinking on this. I'd say the genetic degradation is an inference from the Fall, but that it's more the inevitable working out of a law of cause and effect than it is a straightforward divine retribution. That is, "the wages of sin is death" -- the more sin, the more death, and sin accumulates in the human race, and we do inherit it from our ancestors. We all inherit the original sin from Adam, and original sin is the inclination to sin, and individual sins accumulate since then. God's role has been more sustainer and protector in all this.And by the way there is no such thing as a "Christian God." God is God. The Bible reveals many things about the true God. He's the God of all things, ruler of everything, including you. Of course it's important, it's the law that runs the universe, it's part of God's own nature, but because of disobedience we haven't the moral will to follow it and so fall farther into debt to it with every effort. This is why we need a Savior, which is what Christianity is about. But you can't understand the need for a Savior unless you understand the inexorable demands of the moral law upon us all and our complete inability to obey it in the right spirit since the Fall. That's a start. I didn't say any of this was "acceptable" as religion. There is no way we can earn our way to God's favor, and that is what all religions do. All attempts to obey the moral law fail as far as salvation goes. I've tried to be clear about this but perhaps haven't spelled it out consistently enough. I'm not talking about salvation when I'm talking about the moral law and health and longevity and genetic deterioration. I'm talking about practical rules for minimizing the effect of the Fall in this life only, on this planet only. The Bible is given as a revelation of the truth which we have lost because of the Fall which blinded us. It reveals the nature of things, the nature of God, rather than that it decrees anything. It isn't "other religions" it's simply blind human nature's failure to recognize the truth since the Fall, having been seduced by Satan and no longer knowing the true God. Human nature can't come up with true religion, it's beyond us, this is why we need revelation from God himself. The disposition of particular individuals who do not know Christ is best left to God. Those who outright reject Christ are something other than those who never learned of him. God is merciful; it will all make perfect sense in the end. Well, we are in danger of eternal suffering because of our defiance of the moral law, and God provided the remedy. There is no other. He revealed it all at a particular time and place, but it's a mistake to get hung up on that fact. "Being Christian" kind of misrepresents it. Those who have accepted the remedy are called Christian, but don't get hung up on terminology. The disease is universal and the remedy is offered to all. Please rethink the context here. This wasn't to be a thread about Christianity but about the Biblical revelation of the Fall and the implications of that for our physical degeneration which I believe would show in the genome if we would only study it with that in view. This isn't about how to have eternal life, which comes only through embracing the Savior God sent for that purpose, it's only about our physical life in this physical realm. While it helps to get these things sorted out, let's not turn this thread into a thread about salvation. But this is specifically what I was trying to counter by pointing out that all cultures have intuited the moral law and sought to found principles of living on it. There is nothing whatever that is inherently Christian about it. I would expect there to be no obvious difference between Christians and others in this respect, except perhaps what has come from God's blessing our circumstances with medical knowledge and that sort of thing. But as far as our human bodies go we're no less subject to disease and death than anyone else on the planet. I would expect Lao Tse, and any who follow his principles of humility and avoiding desire and conflict, to live a long healthy life. Certainly those principles would keep him from sins against the Ten Commandments. I would like to emphasize again that I am not talking about religion, I'm talking about living in accord with the moral law, and yes, the ten commandments, the last five or six if you prefer, would be a good standard for starters. That much is pretty universal.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No, I'm talking about physical degeneration. This came off the previous thread about the effect of the Fall in bringing about disease and death, and how I would expect that to play out in the gradual deterioration of the genome and our general health over time.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Seems to me I read somewhere the interpretation that they did eat from the tree of life quite freely, which was no problem as long as they remained in favor with God, but that they couldn't be allowed to eat of it any more after they had disobeyed, because then they would have become immortal evil beings, like Satan and his angels.

Well, sin is accumulating over time, we inherit the propensity from our sinner ancestors, but despite this people seem to continue with a conscience and a moral sense, so I can't say that I SEE moral degeneration. I think the pre-Flood world must have been about as sinful as it's possible to get. But I do think the world atmosphere is more sinful overall in the last century or so. That is, there used to be cultural restraints against many kinds of sins, restraints that no longer exist at least in the West, but whether this is just part of the continuing trend since the Fall or a development peculiar to our time I couldn't say. It means the West is heading for some heavy judgment in the near future, but that's another subject.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's not out of context, Adam's sin IS the context:

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Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses {not from Cain to Moses}, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

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The whole passage is about how death, condemnation, judgment, and all humanity's being made sinners came through one man's offense or transgression, "the transgression of Adam." It's perfectly consistent with scripture which clearly says that death ENTERED the world with Adam. You are putting your own logic against what scripture actually says. It SAYS sin and death came through Adam, and you weren't there so you don't know what Adam knew or didn't know -- he had an inside track to the mind of God before he fell, and you don't, so you should believe what the scripture says and give up forcing it to mean what you want it to mean -- you, and Ramoss and jar and Ringo and whoever else is making such obviously false claims.Here's another verse saying it was through Adam that death came:

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1Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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Does it matter to any of you that this is standard traditional Christian theology through the ages? It's even one of the scripture lines Handel put in his
"Messiah" in the 18th century. Scroll down to 46. Chorus. But I guess you all don't mind putting yourselves above the sages of Christian history.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, this thread is supposed to be about how Biblical creationism derives the idea of genetic devolution from scripture, but I guess we're going to spend part of it arguing about all the other ways of interpreting scripture first. Um, it's ABOUT Christians and non-Christians alike. It's about the entire human race. No one is exempt. We all go back to Adam. It's explaining how death happened in the first place and continues to happen to all of us. Um, how are you getting this "thus"? By interpreting it as only referring to Christians? Without the slightest justification. You are getting all this out of the one word "reigned" in that one sentence? Taking it out of the context in which terms of origin such as "death entered" "came upon" and "were made sinners" should define it? I must admire the creative twistedness of the effort. And your clue to this is... what? "...reigned?" What? All that ingenuity just to reduce something gloriously transcendant to something dull, pedestrian, bo-o-o-o-o-rrrring. So we have, basically, a fake "death" and a fake "life," both reduced to metaphors in keeping with the nonphysical terms "disobedience, condemnation, hopelessness" and so on, as if their mere association in one sentence requires this? What? He places the ORIGIN of death in the past, the ENTRANCE of death -- if you read the whole thing in context instead of making some special separate idea out of "reigned." He places true life in the future, eternal life, the life Adam lost at the Fall, places it in the future when it will be fully restored. {edit: All of us in this life, this earthly life, are not alive but dead, according to scripture -- "dead in trespasses and sins." When Paul asks rhetorically
"who will deliver me from this body of death?" it's not just a metaphor. Regeneration in Christ means restoration to REAL life, true life, eternal life, spiritual life, along with the incorruptible body at the resurrection.} No, the life that is to be restored is spiritual life, eternal life, and a new resurrected incorruptible body will be part of it, a body that first will pass through physical death. Paul does talk about the body being raised incorruptible in another part of scripture. If you read this out of context you will miss the meaning of that too. Only if you completely ignore the context, ignore other passages of scripture that contradict it, and make it up out of whole cloth.And again, all that cognitive exertion to what end? Turning a prince into a frog or something like that.Bo-o-o-o-o-o-r-r-r-r-ing. No wonder you guys aren't interested in Christianity. You don't understand it. Because you refuse to believe it really means what it says. You drag it down to dull plodding earthbound death-ridden "reality." But scripture says those who won't believe consider it foolishness. Funny though how hard you have to work to turn it into something dull and trivial.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You interpret Paul out of context and impose your own prejudice on him, as I showed. I notice you don't bother to answer my charge of fakery, legerdemain with words.There is nothing spiritual about a metaphorical "life" and "death." You are treating spirituality as unreal, as a mere mental state, word games, but Christianity is about Reality, and Spiritual Reality is Real. Real life, real death, and a life and a death even beyond the life and death we think is real.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Not when it really is a metaphor; only when it's a reality that is being trivialized into a metaphor, and when the context of a statement is utterly ignored in order to turn it into a metaphor.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I read all of C.S. Lewis' books years ago.As I recall, he was good at arguing against just the sort of thing you are doing here.Metaphors are fine when they are in fact metaphors, not when real life and real death are turned into metaphors. This is in fact the technique of the liberal Christians, to take the realities of scripture and make them into parables and metaphors and other purely cognitive, linguistic or psychological categories, or some sort of quasi-reality that is neither here nor there.So the resurrection becomes the "resurrection," and the ascension becomes the "ascension" and the virgin birth, though I haven't seen this one done this way, could become the "virgin birth" and in fact reality become "reality." Miracles become "miracles," an idea or a psycbological event, rather than real events in real space-time.In the same way you turn real physical (AND spiritual) life and death into mere cognitive constructs, so-to-speaks and as-it-weres.Metaphors have no tangible reality, they are cognitive constructs, and they may be very useful for instruction, for getting a point across, but they are ABOUT reality, they are not reality itself.Life and death in that passage quoted, on the other hand, are real.And by the way, the intellect is considered to be of the flesh, not the spirit, until regenerated.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

We ALL fail in obeying the commandments, most especially the first four of them, and most especially those of us who KNOW the ten commandments, and it was Paul who taught that we sin the more, the more we are told not to, and the law was given to show that we can't obey it.Scripture also teaches that there is such a thing as a person who had no contact with God's revelation to the Hebrews who nevertheless followed his conscience and obeyed what light he had, and was counted righteous for that. Job is in fact an example of such. So is Noah and all the righteous patriarchs before and after him.Surely Lao Tse can be counted in that number; and Gautama Buddha and numerous unknown others. And beyond that, Jesus preached the gospel to the dead before his resurrection, among whom would have been that entire company including Lao Tse, and if he received the gospel of Christ he is now in heaven with Him. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What MJF said, Message 80.