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Author | Topic: Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
He's either an idiot, or for a deity, remarkably hard-up when it comes to paying for design plans. He uses the same basic body plan for fish, quadrupeds, bipeds, birds, etc. Why should us bipeds have to put up with a skeletel structure that designed for walking on all fours? Did God force us into second-hand body-plans post-fall, just so that we could enjoy the delights of back-pain?
Why do we have sub-optimal eye design, especially compared to the octopus? Why do we have such stupid "programming" restrictions in the articulation of our arms? Did we not itch in that impossible-to-reach spot on our backs, pre-fall? Why are our genitals so exposed to damage? Why do we hurt, damage and even kill ourselves when we fall over? Was the ground softer pre-fall? Why do our bones break, limbs dislocate, etc? Why do we need to eat? Why do we need to breathe? If you can point out to me the guy responsible for all of this, I will not bow down and worship... I will laugh becasue he has made one hell of a joke. As an exercise in what physical laws can produce, the human life is a stroke of genius. As an exanmple of what a deity can spontaneously 'create', it's pathetic... (Misc Topics in C/E) Edited by cavediver, : No reason given. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Bluejay,
The natural response from the religious is that the Designer's point wasn't to make an optimal Creation, but to make a creation that was suitable for testing His children for their eternal destinations. Possibly for some 'religious' this is true (I'm guessing Islam, your own Mormonism, etc.) but it is not mainstream Christian doctrine, where creation was good/perfect, and hardship is the result of the fall.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Perhaps if you suddenly lost all your fingernails or your fingers If I were the designer, it wouldn't be possible to lose fingernails, nor have those ever so delicate fingers break so damn easily.
Then perhaps if after loosing your fingers you lost your elbows or the cartilage in your elbows If I were the designer, you wouldn't have joints with such a pathetic mumber of degrees of freedom. And they certainly wouldn't need to use cartilage.
Perhaps if you suddenly became colorblind, blurry visioned, or blind If I were the designer, there would be no such things as blurry vision, colourblindness, nor indeed blindness. And your eyes would see a damn site better than they do now, and would have a much greater range of frequency reception.
Perhaps if you suddenly lost the ability to produce tears or lost your eye lashes and then the eyelids If I were the designer, you wouldn't need any of those protection mechanisms we have for our appallingly delicate eyes.
Perhaps if you suddenly lost all of your toes, then the legs Why the hell can I not fly??? If I were the designer, you would be soaring with the birds. The designer has taunted us with that one for millenia.
Perhaps if you suddenly lost the ability of recall in your brain To some extent, I already have. And it pisses me off. If I were the designer, you would never need worry about such things, nor any degenerative affliction.
Perhaps if your body suddenly lost the ability to coagulate blood And if I were the designer, you would never have the need for your blood to coagulate. Actually, you wouldn't need blood.
These are just a few of the masterfully designed properties of body and mind which I praise, honor, glorify and thank Jehovah, creator, for And these are just a few of the areas where I could do a hell of a lot better. Unless, that is, I was constrained within a physical/evolutionary framework... Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
If I was an Intelligent Designer and could make a living thinking person with the ability to be ungrateful, recalcitrant and blasphemous, I'd probably also give him the gift of self determination. And if I were an Intelligent Designer and could make a living thinking person, I'd make such a good job of it that they would not choose to be ungrateful, recalcitrant and blasphemous ![]()
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Blasphemers, Thank Jehovah, god, god of mercy and slow to anger... Buz - for too long have I heard here at EvC about how this great design so obviously apparent in the Universe is evidence for a designer. I'm just pointing out that if this designer had carte blanche and our physical selves are what he came up with, then he made a really crap job. There is no blasphemy there - it is just coming to conclusions via the evidence. Now, if I wanted to blaspheme, I'd say something like...
quote: ABE
Programmed robots, even, incapable of choice. Sorry, just saving posts. Why does not having a crap design imply incapable of choice? In fact, it's the other way zaround. The designer made us up out of the physical laws of this Universe - which to all intents seems to rob us of free choice. If I were the designer, I'd simply make everyone out of magic, and simply give them free chocie. I think he missed trick there... Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
A paranoid Intelligent Designer! Sorry, I don't follow. Why would actually taking care to make a great creation imply that the ID was paranoid?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Why, as an all knowing designer, would you be afraid of making humans with all their failings (each have their own)? Afraid of rebellion? ungratefulness? blasphemy? No, you've completely lost me here. You seem to be saying that God proves that he is not afraid of making substandard humans by making substandard humans. Is that why we have so many hideous birth defects - it's just God proving that he's not afraid to do such things?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
No, I'm asking you why you, if you were an Intelligent Designer, would be afraid of making every human imperfect? Me? I would not be afraid of anything... I would just not deliberately choose to make my creatures with such idiotic body plans.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
What the IDists have is an idea, a hypothesis. But instead of submitting their hypothesis to science and the scientific method they instead insist to the public at large that it is valid scientific theory being suppressed by a paranoid scientific community intent on protecting the dogma of evolution at all costs. Unfortunately, the public at large loves conspiracy theories. I think the true ID'ists are few and far between... the vast majority fall straight into the Pandas and People category, and it is they plus the good old vanilla YECs that I am addressing. They may mumble on about information and DNA codes, but it doesn't take much reading between the lines (and usually, just reading the lines) to see the creation aspect hiding behind - if in doubt, just hammer them down on when humans first appeared. I would hazard that this goes for most of our recent ID/YEC crowd here. True ID, of the Salty and Behe mold, are most definitely scientific - pretty much falsified - but scientific non-the-less. I'm not addressing space-alien designers, pan-dimensional children playing with their toys, scientists creating universes in test tubes, nor whomever it was that made us look just like Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, etc. Perhaps I should change my title to "Why is the creator such an idiot?" - I was going for that but I was afraid of the taunts of "blasphemy" ![]()
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
The Biblical designer designed the human body and soul to live forever. The Genesis fall lowered the physical phase of that to several hundred years. The post flood atmosphere then lowered that to an average of 70. Buz - pre-fall, what would have happened in adam had fallen out of a tree? From 100ft high? Or simply tripped over and landed on a sharp protruding stick? What stopped him choking on his fruit? Were his eyes actually well-designed at this stage, without a blind-spot? Did he get back-ache? And if he took a knife, and gave a local chimpanzee a good shave, would he have said to God - 'huh, why did you make me look just like that thing???'
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
there's a forum for that: Theological Creationism and ID I'm wondering if this thread should really be there... any defense raised will almost certainly be theological in nature. What do you think? I have no objections to a move...
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
This I suppose is the major flaw of the "if there was a designer, he must have been an idiot" argument. It begins by assuming the logically unfounded conclusion of the opponent, and is essencially an appeal to consequence (in that the argument is still intended to convince the audience that there is no designer because such a designer would need to be stupid). Yes, it is called 'reductio ad absurdam' - a very powerful tool in mathematics and science.
I'd much rather stick with the "where's your evidence of a designer" argument, as it forces the cdesign proponentist to meet the burden of proof by providing evidence of any design at all. Yes, so would I. But we have seen the utter failure of such attempts here at EvC. We have been told of the mountains of evidence that points to fiat-creation but so little is brought to the table. Yes, the little that has been brought has been demolished, but the proponents apparently have not even begun to show the real evidence so they sit back, and smugly continue to deride our scientific efforts to understand the Universe, while we bleat about how they need to bring more evidence. I, for one, am sick of this behaviour - I look at the hours wasted by myself and others in trying to explain the science behind this Universe, as we understand it, and see that effort simply spat back at us.
and while it never convinces the cdesign proponentist to concede, the undecideds in the audience are typically aware of which side is full of shit. We have been extremely reactive and defensive in this debate. This one isn't for the peanut gallery as such - it is an offensive to demonstrate quite clearly to the cdesign proponentists that their position is extremely weak, ON THEIR TERMS. I have resisted starting this thread for a couple of years, because it can be a broad brush and we can already see that it causes angst to a degree with those outside the pure cdesign propentists. But I am sure that many of us have been thinking it, and biting our tongues out of courtesy.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
And We'll also provide the dust that you need to create your beings. Thanks, that's very generous of you. But I notice you're holding back on that omnipotence and omniscience... afraid that with those I might just knock up a creation that would have every living creature falling at my feet?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
How is ID's inability to provide evidence a failure on the part of those who ask for it? It's not - the failure is in our inability to respond to every post they make with 'very good, but where's your evidence for a designer?' Every time Berreta makes a dig at evolution in that thread, many of us make Pavlovian defences. And that constitutes the vast majority of that thread. Without the topic title, you'd be hard pressed to guess the specific topic.
The failure of ID proponents to provide evidence was the very issue it was intended to highlight! And what it really highlighted was our desire to defend science. As indeed we should. But I felt it was time for a thread where such defenses were not going to be required.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3969 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
My God would have made us out of the dust of the earth and we'd have no innards at all. Now why can't everyone see this obvious point??? Did Buz really ask how we'd get our nutrients without eating ![]()
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